Freethought & Rationalism Archive

IamJoseph · 05-30-2009, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Our present texts of Pliny Josephus Suetonius and Tacitus all use the word Christian (or Chrestian in the case of Tacitus).

Few on this forum doubt the authenticity of the Pliny reference, the others are more controversial.

Andrew Criddle

Pliny would be acceptable if there is an actual original copy existing. Otherwise, it is not sufficient at all, and a copy can be doctored - as with the Josephus documents. My research is that the terms christ and christian never appeared till 174 CE.

The referece to christ [Messiah/Redeemer] would not have been used at this time by any christian or Nasserite group attributing this to Jesus, because five other Messiahs were nominated, and all of these had a massive following, while there was a miniscule group who followed Jesus, and without the later embellishments made by Cristianity.

It indicates that the Gospels was a wholly Greek/Roman construct with no input from Jews. Why any honest christian would condone John, which calls all Jews as sons of devils - as a Hebrew Jewish writings, is beyond all acceptable coherence. However this makes sense when the actual reality is factored in: Rome, and then Roman Catholicism, gave no options to Europeans what they will and will not believe, and no Europeans put up a defense or demanded proof - this inculcated attribute appears to have trickled down in Christian DNA.

IamJoseph · 05-30-2009, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Psst - aa5874 - the Jews were not the only religion that sacrificed animals in Temples. It seems pretty clear to me that Pliny is talking about pagans who had been seduced by that weird new cult of Christianity - "but it seems possible to check and cure it" - and the reformed Christians are returning to the old religion and sacrificing to the Roman gods.

Actually, sacrifice was not a Hebrew concept, and its usage was negated in the Hebrew bible. First, the Hebrew became the first to forbid human sacrifice - rampant in both Europe and Arabia; and second, the sacrifices listed as permissable was conditional to accidental sins and crimes [wanton crimes had other mandated punishments], and fobidden outside the Temple - this effectively reduced animal sacrifice by 99%. All sacrifice being conditional to the Temple also meant that without this edifice, all sacrifice was thus forbidden, and replaced by deeds and prayers, while correctly catering to this human cndition which was 1000's of years old. The elimination of sacrifice is foretold in the Psalms of David.

'DO I DRINK THE BLOOD OF BULLOCKS?

'PLEASE ACCEPT THE SACRiFICE OF MY LIPS'

The issue of a human sacrifice is expressly forbidden in the Hebrew:

'ONLY THE SOUL THAT SINNETH IT SHALL PAY - THE SON SHALL NOT PAY FOR THE FATHER NOR THE MOTHER FOR THE DAUGHTER'

sharrock · 06-05-2009, 11:38 AM

I stumbled across this, which in the light of the above posts looks slightly dubious...

http://www.blavatsky.net/magazine/th.../jesusone.html

Quote:

Many persons believe that Christianity has been in existence for only two thousand years. But history shows that the terms Christ and Christians were well known to writers like Herodotus and Aeschylus fully five centuries before the "Christian" era, and were simply borrowed by the later "Christians" from the Temple terminology of the Pagans. The early Church knew this to be a fact, for it is openly admitted by no less an authority than Justin Martyr, one of the foremost Christian writers of the second century.

... but perhaps someone may have an opinion as to its validity ? I searched for Herodotus and Aeschylus but could not find anything backing up the "five centuries before" statement.

Underseer · 06-05-2009, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Our present texts of Pliny Josephus Suetonius and Tacitus all use the word Christian (or Chrestian in the case of Tacitus).

Few on this forum doubt the authenticity of the Pliny reference, the others are more controversial.

Andrew Criddle

Right, because everything we have with Josephus' name on it is completely reliable, and not modified in any way.

Toto · 06-05-2009, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharrock

I stumbled across this, which in the light of the above posts looks slightly dubious...

http://www.blavatsky.net/magazine/th.../jesusone.html

Quote:

Many persons believe that Christianity has been in existence for only two thousand years. But history shows that the terms Christ and Christians were well known to writers like Herodotus and Aeschylus fully five centuries before the "Christian" era, and were simply borrowed by the later "Christians" from the Temple terminology of the Pagans. The early Church knew this to be a fact, for it is openly admitted by no less an authority than Justin Martyr, one of the foremost Christian writers of the second century.

... but perhaps someone may have an opinion as to its validity ? I searched for Herodotus and Aeschylus but could not find anything backing up the "five centuries before" statement.

You doubt Madame Blavatsky? How can you do that when the spirits spoke directly to her? What higher source of authority can there be? She probably did some astral time traveling to get this information directly from the source. :Cheeky:

OK, seriously, Blavatsky's reference to Justin Martyr is confused, since she is referencing Justin's comments about the similarities between rituals, and possibly other passages where Justin claims similarities between Christianity and earlier pagan religions.

And I think if you look carefully, you will find that some Christians at some point have found Christian messages in all sorts of classical literature. E.g.,

Aeschylus

Quote:

Particular care was taken of this manuscript when the library of Alexandria, augmented by the library of Pergamus, which Antony gave to Cleopatra, was transferred to the temple of Jupiter Serapis. There it was that Saint Jerome came to read, in the Athenian text, the famous passage in the PROMETHEUS prophesying Christ: "Go and tell Jupiter that nothing shall make me name the one who is to dethrone him."

Other doctors of the Church made, from the same copy, the same verification. For in all times orthodox asseverations have been combined with what have been called testimonies of polytheism, and great pains have been taken to make pagans say Christian things. "Teste David cum Sibylla." People came to the Alexandrian library, as on a pilgrimage, to examine the PROMETHEUS--constant visits which perhaps deceived the Emperor Hadrian, making him write to the Consul Servianus: "Those who worship Serapis are Christians; those who profess to be bishops of Christ are at the same time devotees of Serapis."

But I have no idea where Herodotus fits in here. I think that time travel is the most likely source.

Minimalist · 06-05-2009, 02:14 PM

Quote:

It provides in the retrojection business
what is known as a "priority date".

They were unconcerned about anything else.
In the style of the "Testimonium Flavianum"
they - at some stage in later preceedings -
could cite ancient historical mentions.

Pete, if you are going to go through the trouble of forging something why not make it say what you want it to say? The TF is a perfect forgery. It hits all the 4th century doctrines being pushed by the newly-empowered xtians in virtual bullet-point style. Pliny should be an embarrassment to xtians.

All I'm saying is, why would they do such a half-assed job?

Tyro · 06-05-2009, 05:25 PM

is the inscription EMIT IVCVNDI CHRESTIANI OLL about christians it must be the earliest reference to that name?
i posted a question about this in the wrong forum first

Tyro · 06-05-2009, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

I have read that Justin Martyr uses the term "Chrestiani" exclusively in the original texts.

that seems to be a myth spread by blavatsky and others. perhaps it refers to the pun in First Apology 4 (which blavatsky refers to). everywhere here the christians are called christians, and not chrestians. justin says the christians are 'excellent', χρηστότατοι, and uses the word χρηστὸν, but not as the name of the christians... "Χριστιανοὶ γὰρ εἶναι κατηγορούμεθα· τὸ δὲ χρηστὸν μισεῖσθαι οὐ δίκαιον." - "For we are accused of being Christians, and to hate what is excellent (Chrestian) is unjust."

Toto · 06-05-2009, 05:59 PM

Chrestians before Christians? An Old Inscription Revisited, by Erík Zara

Ben also has:

The Chrestianos Issue in Tacitus Reinvestigated on his site, based on this thread.

Dave31 · 01-16-2010, 09:04 AM

So what's the deal with Emperor Hadrian?

Quote:

Toto post 25 "...Emperor Hadrian, making him write to the Consul Servianus: "Those who worship Serapis are Christians; those who profess to be bishops of Christ are at the same time devotees of Serapis."

Quote:

"...Taylor also comments that, at the time this letter was purportedly written, "Christians" were considered to be followers of the Greco-Egyptian Serapis per Emperor Hadrian's statement--"and that the name of Christ [was] common to the whole rabblement of gods, kings, and priests." Writing around 134 CE, Hadrian purportedly stated:

"The worshippers of Serapis are Christians, and those are devoted to the God Serapis, whocall themselves the bishops of Christ. There is no ruler of a Jewish synagogue, no Samaritan, no Presbyter of the Christians, who is not either an astrologer, a soothsayer, or a minister to obscene pleasures. The very Patriarch himself, should he come into Egypt, would be required by some to worship Serapis, and by others to worship Christ. They have, however, but one God, and it is one and the self-same whom Christians, Jews and Gentiles alike adore, i.e., money."

It is likely that the "Christos" or "Anointed" god Pliny's "Christiani" were following was Serapis himself, the syncretic deity created by the priesthood in the third century BCE. In any case, this god "Christos" was not a man who had been crucified in Judea."

http://truthbeknown.com/pliny.htm

06-05-2009, 05:25 PM	#27
Tyro Junior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: US Posts: 90	first christian reference? is the inscription EMIT IVCVNDI CHRESTIANI OLL about christians it must be the earliest reference to that name? i posted a question about this in the wrong forum first

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06-05-2009, 05:59 PM	#29
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Chrestians before Christians? An Old Inscription Revisited, by Erík Zara Ben also has: The Chrestianos Issue in Tacitus Reinvestigated on his site, based on this thread.

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