sotto voce

How droll.

Not everyone is a democrat. Of course, it is relevant. The history of Constantinianism is one of consistent, persistent and pernicious opposition to the purifying following of 'the Galilaean'. It stretches from the farcical theatre of Nicaea, to the forced baptisms of Clovis, to the Roman Inquisition, to the bombing of Guernica under Franco. In the West that opposition was more manifest, more naked, more bloody, than in the East, for economic reasons, but the malign influence of the imperium of Rome lives on even today, and in all parts of the world. It lies just under the surface (though it can be forced to rear its ugly head) in places one might least expect.

Iskander

One of the titles of the Roman Emperors was that of pontifex maximus which translates as supreme pontiff, the emperor was in charge of religious affairs and eventually the bishop of Rome inherited the imperial title together with its authority and religious role – the bishop of Rome also inherited the right to wear the purple robe and the imperial pomposity and autocratic governance.

Huon

The baptism of Clovis was not forced. This baptism brought him the help of the catholic fraction of the Gauls against the arian Wisigoths. His wife, Clotild, belonged to the catholic fraction of the royal family of the Burgonds (Bourgogne). There is a joke in french, saying that "Clovis embraced the cult of Clotild". French speakers will easily understand "cul = ass" instead of "cult"... Clovis was a sort of frankish Constantine.

sotto voce

Note the use of the plural.

Iskander

Christianity made the former subjects of the Roman Empire an easy target for would be conquerors.


The Emperor Theodosius enacted legislation to impose Christianity in the Roman Empire and to exterminate non-Christians.


The history of early Christianity is a history of cruel repression against whoever disagreed with them. The Christian bloody intolerance also extended to their fellow Christians; the Christians became obsessed with heresy and and hunted down dissenters. Heresy in classical Greece had only meant a school of thought, but early Christians made holding a different opinion a crime against God punishable with eternal hell fire, and also a crime against the ecclesiastical authority punishable with death.


There was no desire in the population to fight for the preservation of Christianity. Even Rome was easily conquered by invaders and Augustine felt obliged to explain that Christian duty lay in the spiritual in his book, the City of God

In Spain in 711 a small Saracen raiding party conquered almost the whole country after winning a small battle against the Christian Visigoth king and the conquerors felt so secure among the Christian former subject of the Visigoths that they proceeded almost immediately to invade France. They were stopped south of Paris by a largely pagan Frankish army.
The Christian Visigoth kingdom in Spain that the Saracens replaced had been a very very bad government.

sotto voce

Isn't it strange? A week is a long time in politics, but in religion, three hundred years is but a blink of an eyelid.

Iskander

I am listening

sotto voce

Good.

Huon

Ah ?

The history told by Gregory of Tours is certainly embellished, to show clearly that the conversion of Clovis to catholicism gave him the help of the God of the christians. But I never read that Clovis was baptized many times.

J-D

I think you will find that what sotto voce meant by 'the forced baptisms of Clovis' was not 'baptisms which Clovis was forced to accept' but 'baptisms which Clovis forced other people to accept', although I'm guessing here, because sotto voce has not had the courtesy to provide 'uns own explanation.