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Old 03-16-2009, 12:55 PM   #21
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I think Loftus' point is that the idea of the legal equality between men and women can be justified with rational arguments and is not as a matter of "special revelation" from the Bible or the Qur'an. (You probably have to follow the arguments of American evangelical Christians to appreciate this.)
My point is that the subjective plausibility of these "rational arguments" will vary from culture to culture, in the same way as the subjective plausibility of "special revelation".

Andrew Criddle
I like Rawl's veil of ignorance approach to questions for example of the equality of women.

Imagine you could be born as anyone anywhere on this planet, a woman, a disabled person, a slave, an African villager, a European, a North Korean.

Would you be satisfied? Would you consider it fair? How would you want society to be arranged?
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Old 03-17-2009, 10:14 PM   #22
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I have seen evangelicals dismiss the idea that they would be Muslims just because they were brought up in an Islamic country. They will note the converts within those countries and suggest that there must be something on a faith level which is superior in Christianity to cause these people to convert in spite of the risks to themselves. They will also note that Jesus' also judged faith in terms of one's response to the gospel, so that is why it is necessary to go to countries like these and enable people to become Christians so that more can hear the message and be saved.
Also, a number of Christians throughout the world have converted to Islam, or simply deconverted from theism.
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Old 03-18-2009, 03:59 PM   #23
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Also, a number of Christians throughout the world have converted to Islam, or simply deconverted from theism.
Yeah, but that's just the influence of Satan *kidding!*

They'd point out that converts to Islam in the west aren't risking so much since Christians don't threaten apostates with the death penalty. (As far as I know, that's currently true for all countries.)

- It's another case of fatwa envy when it comes down to it. After all, how can you say that someone isn't prepared to stand up for their beliefs in spite of the risk of death when they convert to Islam and take part in a suicide bombing? Well, the method seems to be to choose that moment to shift the focus of the discussion from the 'strength of belief' to a 'moral opposition to violent extremism'. Suddenly converts are not better because of the strength of their belief, but because of their 'non-violent victim' status..... Ahhh Nietzsche's accusation of 'ressentiment' raises its head again.
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Old 03-19-2009, 10:30 PM   #24
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Well, good luck, and keep up the good fight!
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Old 03-20-2009, 10:08 AM   #25
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Yet you have shown it to be rather convincing to a number of people, so I'd be interested in knowing what I am missing here.
Actually reading my defense of it? ;-)
Sorry, I missed this comment earlier. I suppose I was wondering whether we could have a taster. If this is really such an impressive argument, I would have thought that a little more information about it would make me more likely to buy the book rather than less. As it is, it feels like your book is aimed at a different audience and, as such, I feel uncertain about whether to buy it.
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Old 03-21-2009, 12:51 AM   #26
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That's me, this coming weekend! The EPS meets in conjunction with the ETS where I'll be presenting and defending my <em>Outsider Test for Faith</em> in the midst of these Christian scholars. They meet at Ashand Theological Seminary on March 20-21st...and I'll be speaking Friday at 11:40 AM. Links can be found below:

http://www.etsjets.org/?q=regions/Midwest

http://www.etsjets.org/?q=regions/updates/10

I'd love to meet readers of this forum. As you'd guess, I'm both excited and a bit nervous.

Just remember that those Christians who claim the earth is 6000 years old, and quote Genesis as their back-up - are raving nut cases.
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Old 03-21-2009, 08:33 PM   #27
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Just remember that those Christians who claim the earth is 6000 years old, and quote Genesis as their back-up - are raving nut cases.
Not all of them. Some are reasonable people, just uninformed and misled. I should know, since I was one of them for years, until my studying of the Bible led me to see how screwed up it is.
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Old 03-22-2009, 02:05 AM   #28
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Just remember that those Christians who claim the earth is 6000 years old, and quote Genesis as their back-up - are raving nut cases.
Not all of them. Some are reasonable people, just uninformed and misled. I should know, since I was one of them for years, until my studying of the Bible led me to see how screwed up it is.
Too right - not all. I don't say it with negative feelings - it is just an over zealous readings, which many Jews also harbor. Genesis is a most demanding prose, and each word is loaded.
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