Vylo

Majority in sociological terms is a measure of power, not numbers. A group with a small population can have immense power and privilege, making them the majority, as the hold the majority of the power and not only determine how problems are solved, but what the problems actually are.

Alonzo Fyfe

It is true that sociologists use the term 'morality' to refer to the beliefs held within a particular culture at a certain time. But they also use the word 'science' to refer to the beliefs in a particular culture at a particular time -- as in 'ancient Greek science'.

Yet, it is a huge (and unjustified) leap from this special usage to claiming that this accounts for the use of the word 'morality' (or 'science') when one is not doing sociology -- when one, for example, is actually doing morality or science.

Furthermore, your new interpretation does not solve the problem. The same poll could not reasonably be interpreted as "75% of the people believe that the most powerful elements of society support capital punishment, 15% of the people believe that the most powerful in society oppose it, and 10% offer no opinion about what the most powerful support or oppose." It does not work as a reasonable interpretation of such a poll.

Vylo

Morality is a sociological term, as society is what sets up morals. when ever you discuss morals, you are discussing sociology. Also take into acount I am a sociology major, so I tend to speak in those terms. Morality can not be spoken of independent of society, as it is a result of society's socialization process.

Vylo

It does not matter what you believe, because you are not the one that determines the problem unless you are one in a position of power. Often those with power manipulate others by simply stating what THEY feel is the problem, not what those with lack of power feel is the problem. Our society tends to solve things from the top down, first making it comfortable for those in the highest stratification. It is the group that contains the majority of power that is the majority, the thought that we base governmental decisions off a majority of the population is false. Many may say elections are even ground and that the population majority will rule there. But think about how small of a percantage of people actually vote. Those in power can instill resignation in us so that despite the fact an overwhelming majority of people may dislike the candidates, they will still win. How many times have you heard someone say voting for a third party is "throwing your vote away"? I have heard this excuse dozens of times. Not all of this is coincidence. I'm not trying to make you paranoid that big brother is out to get you, but people do actually try to manipulate the masses in ways which will benefit them, while giving the illusion that people are doing it completely of their own free will.

Alonzo Fyfe

Sorry, sociologists did not invent the term 'morality' -- the term existed long before sociology was invented.

The most important difference between the two is that sociological statements are descriptive, while morality is prescriptive. Sociology has to do with 'is' statements, morality has to do with 'ought' statements. And since 'is' does not equal 'ought', morality is not a sociological term.

It is the case that the moral beliefs within a particular society are among the things that sociologists study. But one must be careful to distinguish the study of a thing, and the thing studied. Geology is not a rock. Sociology is not a moral system. Sociology is a set of descriptions, not a set of prescriptions.

Alonzo Fyfe

I have no idea why you think this is relevant to my post. The fact of the matter is that people do not take the question, "Do you believe that capital punishment is wrong" to be logically identical to the question "Do you believe that the powerful in society support or oppose capital punishment?" They take these to be two distinct questions with, potentially, two distinct answers (capital punishment can be wrong even when it is supported by the powerful people in a society). Thus, any claim that the one statement can be reduced to the other is false.

In order for statement A to be reducible to statement B, A and B must at the very least have the same truth conditions. If they do not have the same truth conditions, any claim of reducibility is false.

Oh, and if you want to wave credentials around . . . my degree is in moral philosophy, and includes six years of graduate school.

Amen-Moses

Actually it is the term "Sociologist" that is recent, Priests, Judges, Politicians, Teachers etc are all Sociologists and always have been even if they don't label themselves such.

Humans have been doing sociology for aeons, that is how morality arose in the first place, sans sociology morality has no meaning, that is why we don't talk about morality when regarding other social species, they don't have sociology (that we are aware of that is).

Amen-Moses

Alonzo Fyfe

I fail to see how this addresses the issue. Sociology is descriptive. Morality is prescriptive. They are two different kinds of things.

Vylo

Where do you get this question from the question is

"Do the powerful in society support or oppose capital punishment?"

Your beliefs have next to no influence on the matter unless you yourself are in a position of power, your question is never asked.

Alonzo Fyfe

But on your account, this question is being asked because "Is X wrong?" and "Is X opposed by the power-majority of people in society?" are the same question.

My counter to this is that it makes no sense to propose that these two questions are simply different wordings for what is, in fact, the same question.

And if you claim that "I didn't say they were the same question." My response would then be to say "wrong is whatever the power-majority of people in society oppose" means that "Is X wrong?" and "Is X that which the power-majority of people in society oppose" are the same question.

[Note: This is known as G.E. Moore's "The Open Question Argument", which is a standard way of demonstrating that a person is committing "the naturalist fallacy."]