Freethought & Rationalism Archive

robto · 10-17-2008, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Roman historians assert the universality of Messianism, even outside Judaism:

In most [Jews] there was a firm persuasion, that in the ancient records of their priests was contained a prediction of how at this very time the East was to grow powerful, and rulers, coming from Judaea, were to acquire universal empire.—Tacitus, Hist. 5,13.

There had spread over all the Orient an old and established belief, that it was fated at that time for men coming from Judaea to rule the world.—Suetonius, Vesp., 4.

Who do you think will give a more accurate picture of Jewish beliefs in the first century: Jewish writers of the first century, or Roman writers writing about Jews?

No Robots · 10-17-2008, 12:28 PM

From Josephus, the Jew, we have this:

But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how, "about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth." The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination.--War of the Jews

robto · 10-19-2008, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

From Josephus, the Jew, we have this:

But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how, "about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth." The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination.--War of the Jews

Yes, and from other Jewish writers we have other views of the Messiah, or none at all. How do you justify giving more weight to Josephus than to other writers?

patcleaver · 10-21-2008, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

From Josephus, the Jew, we have this:

But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how, "about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth." The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination.--War of the Jews

Josephus cannot be trusted here because he told Flavius Vespasian, that according to this famous universally believed prophesy, Flavius Vespasian was the messiah, and Flavius Vespasian would rule the world. That is why Flavius Vespasian spared Josephus' life. Now Flavius Vespasian has become emperor, and Josephus can not contradict whatever he told Flavius Vespasian to save himself.

Rick Sumner · 10-22-2008, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilgodfrey

If these are the only 3 "reasons" for such a widespread belief then I see no reason to accept there was such a widespread belief.

Re (1), does a story about one man implying he was the messiah, and narrating an episode where he was welcomed as such, really suggest that this was "an all encompassing universal belief" of the times?; re (2), what -- precisely! -- is the so-called evidence for same?; re (3), what exactly does the claim that "the Messianic king has a place" have to do with "an all encompassing universal belief" in a "Messianic hope"???

I don't know that we could call it "universal," but "widespread" actually seems pretty fair to me. Certainly we have a sampling of writings representing very diverse audiences and authors.

That said, I think we can agree that the common vision of Jews as waiting with baited breath for the Messiah to arrive and change the world is probably wrong. For most I doubt it even really entered their frame of reference in day to day activities. They were ancient, not stupid.

I think a helpful analogue might be found in apocalypticism today. Most Christians think that some form of armageddon is coming at some point. Some even think it's coming soon. Most don't think it's coming tomorrow, some don't think it's coming at all, and the huge majority don't really think of it at all.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

SkepticBoyLee · 10-23-2008, 09:43 AM

Huge majority dont believe its coming ever?

You sure?

Rick Sumner · 10-23-2008, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkepticBoyLee

Huge majority dont believe its coming ever?

You sure?

That isn't what I said. What I said is that the huge majority just don't think about it.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

bacht · 10-23-2008, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Sumner

I don't know that we could call it "universal," but "widespread" actually seems pretty fair to me. Certainly we have a sampling of writings representing very diverse audiences and authors.

That said, I think we can agree that the common vision of Jews as waiting with bated breath for the Messiah to arrive and change the world is probably wrong. For most I doubt it even really entered their frame of reference in day to day activities. They were ancient, not stupid.

I think a helpful analogue might be found in apocalypticism today. Most Christians think that some form of armageddon is coming at some point. Some even think it's coming soon. Most don't think it's coming tomorrow, some don't think it's coming at all, and the huge majority don't really think of it at all.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

What about time calculations? Do we know which calendar(s) the various Jewish sects were using in the 1st C, and whether they produced certain key dates from prophecy?

10-17-2008, 12:28 PM	#12
No Robots Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 5,679	From Josephus, the Jew, we have this: But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how, "about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth." The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination.--War of the Jews

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-23-2008, 09:43 AM	#16
SkepticBoyLee Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 759	Huge majority dont believe its coming ever? You sure?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.