Catholic Convert

I must admit that they are a mystery to me.

Especially since I found my way into the Church late in life, and entered it willingly after much study.

I know that there are many in the Chruch who are not all that devout, who are "just there," and have not looked deeply into their faith or questioned why they believe.

Perhaps questioning leads some to a deeper faith and others to leave. The rest are kinda lazy. Most of the statues in the Catholic Churces are in the pews.

A lot of people at least will say they don't want to go to Heaven because they want to be with their friends.

Plognark

That's a very honest answer :thumbs:

I think the same goes for most religions. It seems that most people simply do what their parents did, and their parents before them :huh:

Edited to add: Well, do you think that all long time believers are lacking some key comprehension then? Or is this just something you haven't figured out yet? (No shame in that, i'm just genuinely curious)

Do you really think they mean this?

I guess what i'm getting at is that there's a really irritating tendency for theists of various denominations to make the assertion that atheists choose hell, or that we want to go to hell, usually for some invented moral reasoning, such as a desire to sin or something equally silly.

Why they can't accept that fact that we don't actually believe in hell, and that that's all there is to it, is beyond me :huh:

capsaicin67

As I said, I have quite a lot of exposure to Catholicism, though I am by no means a scholar in the doctrines anymore than I am of The Lord of the Rings or Moby Dick. That is true.

I went to Mass as recently as yesterday with an open mind to viewing and participating in some good cultural theatre, that would surely display some benign nods and progressive spin on The Church [TM] in modern America. I really did expect it to be mostly the old readings hammered dutifully into the crude shape of some sort of modern sensibility. I truly did. I primarily went though because some family was going, and I was a little curious after all these years. Also, because I am going to be a godfather, the authentic mission of which I take very seriously [values, character, mentoring] and I'm trying to figure how much good The Church can offer in the process, vs. harm.

>>pretty sure I'm going to be ad-libbing/creating the role now that my prior prejudices have been confirmed by a visit to the latter<<

What I got was more of the Catholic Church telling the people how they could serve IT, not how it intended to serve them. The sermon was the old stories which sound comically out of date as they are, then the official pastoral interpretation told us---and I'm not kidding---that it was our duty to go and convert Orientals [sic] and Muslims and Confucians and Unbelievers. But not Protestants any longer [he stumbled and included Methodists, then tripped all over himself retracting because they "are believers in Christ"] though I thought that at one time "we" believed Catholicism was the One True Church [TM]. So I guess my progressive spin for the day, was to not offend Protestants, for political expediency. And that was our big helpful message.

Memo: I may not have time for a lot of posting today as I'll be busy converting Orientals. :huh: :wave:

capsaicin67

Yes, when most of us around here take poetic license with the term "Hell" we are generally playing with words and ideas. No one would want to go to Hell if they had any sense or believed in it. But then, depends on what they thought it was really too.

The main point is that most of us don't believe it exists at all. It's pretend. A fairy tale of sorts.

The supernatural has no evidence for us, and thus we have come to the conclusion that stories made-up about it were made-up the exact same way that any number of other global stories were made-up by people to try and explain to themselves and others what was beyoned their ability to understand rationally/scientifically. And to entertain and console. There is a ton of evidence of people making up stories, for mixed reasons. Tons of evidence for that. None for the supernatural. So we pull out Occam's Razor.

Debate about Church doctrine can be twisted into all sorts of contortions because it is about a story that is made-up to begin with I think. I could make the story "work" [sort of] through some creative interpreting. I can also make it "not work" through some creative reasoning. And back and forth.

But at the end of the day, the fantasy stuff just gets in the way. So I prefer ethics, values, pragmatism, and aesthetics discussions. Minus the supernatural stuff.

Catholic Convert

Now why would I accuse an athiest of desiring Hell if he does not believe in Hell?

I am referring to people who believe in God, but who don't want to follow God. The ones who are afraid of religion becuase they would have to give up their favorite sin in order to join.

BTW, for whatever it is worth, from my Catholic perspective, I do not believe those of other faiths OR athiests necessarily go to Hell. Nobody will be judged for what they do not know or could not have known.

Biff the unclean

What about those who believe in the God of the bible and see Him as a monster? Then that "favorite sin" you speak of would be courage and morality. If you believe that God is the God who sent the Genesis flood, or killed the first born after hardening Pharaoh’s heart, or is the God of Abraham, Lot and Joshua then why would you ever support Him? If you believe that one person is damned to eternal torment in Hell then why turn your back on your fellow man?

capsaicin67

That's what bothered me---that I did not agree with them as to what constituted a "sin" in the first place. They had a very rigid system that was not fluid enough to accomodate the sea of grey that I was swimming in. I am a person that thinks far more about what I believe is wrong and right than most of my peers did. Religion did not allow nor encourage me to think. It encouraged me to follow, even when I did not agree with it ethically and otherwise.

God gave me a brain. Would I trust other humans that tell me not to use it, that is, would god really tell them to tell me not to use it? I followed that where it inevitably led, which was not only did I not accept other humans' word that they were intermediaries for a god(s), but that a god would want me to not use the gift of my brain.

The genie was out of the bottle!

And once I unshackled my conscience/brain, the days were numbered for the idea of god itself! What a liberating, hallelujah moment that was!

Queen of Swords

Perhaps you do not intend an insult. But to tell me that I desire to go to hell is like telling a conscientious objector that he desires to go to jail. He doesn't fall to his knees, begging to be thrown behind bars, does he?

I don't know who these "some" are that you're speaking for, but personally, I would like to stop existing when I die. None of this heaven and hell stuff for me - or even purgatory.

Queen of Swords

This is a bit confusing, but I take it that you're not referring to atheists because, speaking for myself, I don't believe in a god, neither am I afraid of religion. Are you referring to lukewarm christians, then? What would their favorite sin be?

itsamysteryhuh

Put simply, there is little choice - nothing one can do about it IF God exists since God (as described in the Bible) will be the ultimate judge of our morality. You (meaning those who know about it) either choose to believe, repent, and accept Christ as the Savior, or you choose not to (or not to believe) and risk whatever possible consequences there might be.