Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Based upon what evidence?

Originally Posted by stuart shepard

In my opinion, Jesus advertised what he expected would happen.

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Based upon what evidence?

Originally Posted by stuart sheparh

Did you read Post # 86?

Originally Posted by punkforchrist

First of all, their leader was dead. Think of the devastation Jesus’ followers must have had, recalling the brutal crucifixion of their expected Messiah. In first century Judaism, the idea of a dying and rising Messiah was completely unheard of. Instead of being exalted as a king, Jesus was put to death like a common criminal. Yet, something transformed the disciples in a way that they came to sincerely believe that Jesus had been risen. They were even willing to die for their claim, as is recorded by Clement of Rome, Josephus, and others.

Next, contemporary Jewish beliefs about the afterlife precluded the notion of a dying and rising Messiah. When the Jews at the time referred to “resurrection”, they indeed meant a physical bodily resurrection; however, the dead were believed to be raised at the end of the world, rather than at any point in between. As Joachim Jeremias writes, “Ancient Judaism did not know of an anticipated resurrection as an event of history. Nowhere does one find in the literature anything comparable to the resurrection of Jesus. . . . In no place in the late Judaic literature does it concern a resurrection to [glory] as an event of history.”[5] It would be quite improbable for the disciples to come to believe in Jesus’ resurrection unless it actually occurred. As Luke Timothy Johnson states, “Some sort of powerful, transformative experience is required to generate the sort of movement earliest Christianity was.”[6]

Originally Posted by stuart shepard

I think that PFC's points above merit a response,.......

Originally Posted by stuart shepard

.......but unless I have overlooked it in Sean's reply, none was provided. In short, since there was no expectation of a resurrection until the end of time, and no expectation of a dying-and-rising Messiah, what caused the belief that Jesus was resurrected?

I don't know why the Apostles didn't expect Jesus to die and rise from the dead. Jesus told the Apostles that this would happen....several times.

Originally Posted by stuart shepard

Mark 8:31-32 (King James Version)

31And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

32
And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.

Quote:

Mark 10:33-34 (King James Version)
33 Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:

34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

The Jewish leaders all knew that Jesus predicted he would rise from the dead.

Quote:

Matthew 27:62-63 (King James Version)

62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,

63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

The Jews knew, the leaders knew, Jesus told everyone that he would be dead three days and then rise from the grave.

Jesus promised his "evil and adulterous generation" that the only sign that he would give them would be that he would be like Jonah, who spent three days in the belly of a whale (dead in "the heart of the earth") and then be spit out on dry land. (return from the dead).

Quote:

Matthew 12:38-40 (King James Version)

38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.

39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

In my opinion, Jesus advertised what he expected would happen.
Everyone should have known.

If anyone claimed that they didn't know, we can only assume that they were either fools or liars.

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

I just did for the first time. Here it is:





Well they certainly do merit a response. Regarding "They were even willing to die for their claim, as is recorded by Clement of Rome, Josephus, and others," first of all, it is well-known that Josephus is not a reliable source. Second of all, where did Clement get his information from? Third of all, who are "others"? Fourth of all, there is not sufficient historical evidence how all of the disciples died.



But you first said "In short, since there WAS NO EXPECTATION of a resurrection until the end of time, and no expectation of a dying-and-rising Messiah, what caused the belief that Jesus was resurrected?," and then you said "I don't know why the Apostles didn't expect Jesus to die and rise from the dead. JESUS TOLD THE APOSTLES THAT HIS WOULD HAPPEN.......SEVERAL TIMES." Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

But there is not any credible evidence that Jesus said any of that.

Consider the following Scriptures:

Matthew 24:1-9 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. And they remembered his words, And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.

The women were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children. If Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, and told his followers that he was going to rise from the dead too, it is very unlikely that all three of those women would have forgotten that Jesus said that he was going to rise from the dead.

Consider the following Scriptures:

Mark 16:1-3 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?

So what we have here is that the very same women who forgot that Jesus said that he would rise from the dead even though he had raised Lazarus from the dead, went to the tomb very early in the morning expecting to find someone to roll away the stone from the door of the tomb, and even though (according to another Scripture) Mary Magdalene and the other Mary had seen the stone put in front of the door to the tomb. If Jesus had advertised what he expected would happen, it is very improbable that all of the women at the tomb would have forgotten what he said. What is much more improbable is that the very same women went to the tomb very early in the morning expecting to find someone to roll away the stone from the door of the tomb, and even though (according to another Scripture) Mary Magdalene and the other Mary had seen the stone put in front of the door to the tomb.

If a God telepathically communicated the same message to everyone in the world, surely there would be a lot less doubt and confusion about the existence of a God than there is today. If that happened, wouldn't it be excellent advertising?

Originally Posted by stuart shepard

Johnny, I am not sure who you are arguing with and what's your point.

Originally Posted by stuart shepard

In my opinion, Jesus advertised what he expected would happen.

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

I am not sure what you are arguing either. You said:

I asked you what sources you used to make your claim, and I adequately refuted your sources. I reasonably proved that Jesus did not advertise what he expected would happen. I doubt that you believe that Jesus advertised what he expected would happen.

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

I am not sure what you are arguing either. I asked you what sources you used to make your claim, and I adequately refuted your sources. I reasonably proved that Jesus did not advertise what he expected would happen. I doubt that you believe that Jesus advertised what he expected would happen.

Originally Posted by stuart shepherd

Does the word "advertise" offend you? I think that we both believe that the Gospels are fiction. I know that I do. PFC made a statement, ( I am paraphrasing) that the Apostles did not know that Jesus would rise from the dead.

Originally Posted by stuart shepard

Now I suspect that we both know that Jesus did not rise from the dead. I know that I do not believe in resurrections. To refute PFC, and others, I pointed out Scriptures where Jesus supposedly said he would rise from the dead. I also pointed out that there is a Scripture that supposedly indicates that the Jews knew that Jesus supposedly said he would rise from the dead. In addition I pointed out that Jesus told his "wicked and adulterous generation" that just as Jonah returned from the dead, he too would come back from being dead. I referred to this as "advertising" since presumably he told everyone who would listen.

Originally Posted by stuart shepard

My point was that someone who believes the gospels are true is faced with a contradiction.

Originally Posted by stuart shepard

If they believed that the Apostles did not know that Jesus supposedly said he would rise from the dead, then they are fools since there is adequate Scripture to show that Jesus told everyone that he would rise from the dead.

Originally Posted by stuart shepard

But the other possibility is that the Apostles lied that they did not know since everyone knew.

Originally Posted by stuart shepard

Ultimately my aim was to show that the Gospel accounts cannot be true and that the Gospels are fiction.

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Obviously, since the only way that they could have known that Jesus would rise from the dead would have been if he had risen from the dead.



And I provided reasonable evidence that that did not happen.



But I did not disagree with that. I only disagreed with your claim that Jesus told his followers that he would rise from the dead.



But you know that Christians do believe that Jesus told the Apostles that he would rise from the dead. The main issue is not what Christians believe, but whether or not what they believe is true.



But we do not know what the Apostles said, only what the New Testament says that they said.

I never disagreed with your intentions, only with your claim that Jesus told his followers that he would rise from the dead.

Originally Posted by stuart shepherd

Dear Johnny Skeptic,

Thank you for the clarification of your view. I think, that we both agree that the gospels are fiction. Do I understand you correctly? Jesus did not rise from the dead either. You agree?