Kosh

I think you missed the point of my joke. Usually when mithraism claims are made, our local theists claim that we're just grasping at straws. So I was surprised to find a page like that hosted by a theist.

Get it now?

Seems like everyone here could use a carribean vacation....

Roger Pearse

I'm glad to find I am not the only one getting concerned about the way in which this assertion is tossed around. I couldn't find *any* such link in the ancient sources.

After a couple of years in which no-one had an answer, I was directed to this assertion on a website:

Franz Cumont, Astrology and Religion Among Greeks and Romans, 1960, p. 89: "A very general observance required that on the 25th of December the birth of the ‘new Sun’ should be celebrated, when after the winter solstice the days began to lengthen and the ‘invincible’ star triumphed again over darkness"; for texts on the Mithraic celebration of Dec. 25th see CIL I, p. 140; (Website)

The page has the look of a real dissertation, so there is some credibility here. But I don't know whether this was just repeated from Cumont, and I can't look at the CIL and check vol. 1 p.140. Do you have access?

All these solar cults are appallingly badly documented in the historical record, which makes the confident assertions about them online the more curious.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse

I think you were the first poster in this thread to assert that in the mythology of 'Mithra' the deity was born on 25the December. In view of what you have just said, I'd like to see the colour of the, um, evidence on which you based that statement.

Of course normal people would just have been innocently repeating hearsay, and there is certainly enough of that around. But I think you have just disclaimed the idea that any atheist would do such a thing...<evil grin>

Pardon me, but I think you have volunteered for a banana skin here.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Vorkosigan

Roger and Jeff, I guess the reason none of us regulars stopped by is because this has been beaten to death here over the years, and of course, there is no support in the record of the claims about Mithras and Dec 25th. It appears to be some kind of 19th century claim.

Cumont was active turn of the century and the 1960 date must be the dissertation itself. The book that the citation comes from is online here:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/astro/argr/argr00.htm

The entire text in context is here

• It was customary to worship the rising Sun (Oriens) at dawn, at the moment when its first rays struck the demons who invaded the earth in the darkness. Tacitus describes to us how, at the battle of Bedriacum in A.D. 69, the soldiers of Vespasian saluted the rising sun with loud shouts after the Syrian custom. 1 In temples thrice a day--at dawn, at midday, and at dusk--a prayer was addressed to the heavenly source of light, the worshipper turning towards the East in the morning, towards the South at midday, and towards the West in the evening. Perhaps this custom survived in the three daily services of the early Church.
  
  A very general observance required that on the 25th of December the birth of the "new Sun" should be celebrated, when after the winter solstice the days began to lengthen and the "invincible" star triumphed again over darkness. It is certain that the date of this Natalis Invicti was selected by the Church as the commemoration of the Nativity of Jesus, which was previously confused with the Epiphany. In appointing this day, universally marked by pious rejoicings, which were as far as possible retained,--for instance the old chariot-races were preserved,--the ecclesiastical authorities purified in some degree the customs which they could not abolish. This substitution, which took place at Rome probably between 354 and 360, was adopted throughout the Empire, and that is why we still celebrate Christmas on the 25th of December.

Vorkosigan

Ted Hoffman

SHEPHARD #1 - I got a feeling that something BIG is gonna happen tonight. Wanna go outside to watch?

SHEPHARD #2 - Sure why not? But what about the sheep we've got safely coralled in here? Whos going to watch them while we're stargazing?

SHEPHARD #1 - Why not take them with us? This is something they ought to see as well.

SHEPHARD #2 - Are you shitting me? It's cold as hell and raining outside. No way that all the sheep would survive that. Master would be real pissed. We'd be lucky just to end up in prison.

DIRECTOR : CUT! CUT! CUT! CUT! Damnit. Jesus Fucking Keerist! I said the shepherds start out in the fields. Redo it, you morons! Move it! And its supposed to be fucking cold. Lets see some frost-bite damnit!

SHEPHERD #1 - <teeth shattering, hugging himself> What are we doing here in this weather?

SHEPHERD #2 - <gazing at the snow, face frozen> We are enacting the birth of Jesus - according to Luke - you heard the idiot<gesturing at the frowning DIRECTOR>.

SHEPHERD #1 - <peering through the snowstorm> Hey, look, what is that?

SHEPHERD #2 - Wha..? It is a ...mmmm... an angel?

SHEPHERD #1 - An angel? Sheeit! What is it doing here? Hey, it looks really pissed - what have we done wrong? <scared>

SHEPHERD #2 - Am outta here <starts running>

ANGEL: <in a booming voice> Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord. This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.

SHEPHERD #1 - <whispering> What did he say?

SHEPHERD #2 - I dont give a fuck, I am outta here. This shit is too spooky for me.

SHEPHERD #1 - <grabbing SHEPHERD #2> Get your shit together. The -um- ... angel, said something and we better get it. You know these angel types can really kick ass when they get pissed. You heard about Lot?

SHEPHERD #2 - Lot? What is that, some gambling shit - like casting lots?

SHEPHERD #1 - <rolling eyes> No, no, you idiot, Lot! Lot!...in the Old Testament, the guy whose wife turned to salt?

SHEPHERD #2 - Someone turned to salt? What the fu... They can do that? I am definitely outta here. I am not cut out for this alien shit.

SHEPHERD #1 - <grabbing the spinning SHEPHERD #2> You are not going anywhere.

SHEPHERD #2 - <ripping away SHEPHERD #1's grip> Yes I am.

SHEPHERD #1 - No you are not.

SHEPHERD #2 - Yes I am.

SHEPHERD #1 - No you are not. You stay here. Now where were we? Yes, the angel. What did he say?

SHEPHERD #2 - I dont know man, this is spooky shit. What does he want with us? Why dont you let me just go and you do whatever spooky shit you want to do with this angel bugger of yours... <his pants visibly become wet>.

SHEPHERD #1 - <thinking furiously> Yes I got it - he said something about a saviour being born in the town of David...and a baby wrapped in a manager's ... something.

SHEPHERD #2 - Saviour? What is that?

SHEPHERD #1 - A messiah, you moron.

SHEPHERD #2 - What is a messiah? What is he saving? Our sheep?

SHEPHERD #1 - He is saving us. You, idiot, and me.

SHEPHERD #2 - Saving us? from who? From what?

SHEPHERD #1 - From his father.

SHEPHERD #2 - What did we do to his father?

SHEPHERD #1 - <exasperated> Cant you shut up? I am trying to think....

SHEPHERD #2 - And what is this city of David?

SHEPHERD #1 - Bethlehem...we have to go there. Quickly.

SHEPHERD #2 - And the sheep? What do we do with them?

SHEPHERD #1 - We have to go with them, round them up and herd them there.

SHEPHERD #2 - In this snow? Why dont we just use the angel's spaceship?

SHEPHERD #1 - He does not have a spaceship. He flies - like a butterfly. Moron.

SHEPHERD #2 - <resigned> Which way is this city of Daniel...

SHEPHERD #1 - City of David. Idiot.

SHEPHERD #2 - Whatever man. Where is it?

SHEPHERD #1 - This way

jgibson000

I'm not sure just how credible the site is. In the first place, it's constructed by a Seventh Day Adventist. In the second, it reflects scholarship on Mithras up through the 60s, i.e., before the occurence of the major conference in Italy on Mithras and Mithraism which overturned Cumont's thesis of the Roman Mithras being of Persian origin. In the third place, it repeats the old canard that "According to Plutarch (A.D. 46-125), Vita Pompeii 24, Mithra was introduced into Rome by the Cilician pirates taken captives by Pompey in 67 B.C. " when Plutarch Pompey 24 says no such thing (in fact it does not really even identify the Cilician pirates as Mithraists).

As to CIL, I have no immediate access. But I'll see what I can locate through the Classics list.

I couldn't agree more. And it is a wonder that those who here make them are unaware of how second hand and badly attested and outdated they are, especially in the light of how much they condemn NT scholars for (purportedly) being sloppy and lazy, let alone deceitful and ill informed.


Jeffrey Gibson

Kosh

Lol. :rolling:

"What did he mean the CheeseMakers shall inherit the earth?".

Ted, was that a Monty Python skit or are you just bored at work?

jgibson000

Then I have to ask why you allow the claim to be made over and over again, especially in the confident and paternalistic tone in which it is made, and/or fail to issue a challenge for the claimant to put his money where his mouth is.

Failure to do so gives this list a reputation of being a forum where arrogant nonsense is repeatedly posted by those who lay claim to knowledge they do not possess.

Jeffrey Gibson

Ted Hoffman

Bored at work. I cant believe someone is about to waste bandwidth shredding Cumont and other outdated arguments on Mithraism and comparative religion stuff. It must be comparatively much much more boring.

Ted Hoffman

Because the claimants almost always have no money and no mouth.
If our reputation was that bad, Gibson, you would not be here. There must be something good about us that brought you here.
Now what was it? We need to update our CV.

Oh, by the way, welcome aboard. Dont let the seedlings make you think that the forest is a seedbed. Look up.