youngalexander

These are taken from Snyder, pg 238-
V. INSCRIPTIONS FROM THE UPPER TEMBRIS VALLEY
A list of sources, 7 authors (incl. Gibson) for 10 studies.
eg. William Tabbernee, Montanist Inscriptions and Testimonia Epigraphic Sources Illustrating the History of Montanism

pg 239 has a 'Map of western Asia Minor' and 'Map of the Upper Tembris Valley' and Snyder says,

I will present here one dated "Christians for Christians" inscription (Gibson, #16; Tabbernee #27) and four others dated prior to Constantine (Gibson, #22, 32, 36, and 42; Tabbernee #s 17, 21, 36, and 53).

A. INSCRIPTION OF AURELIOS SATORNEINOS (A.D. 242/3)
as above

B. THE INSCRIPTION OF ALLEXANDROS
6 sources

Location: Altintas, in the mosque.

Translation:
A.D. 248/249
Christians
for Christians.
Aurelia Ammeia
...

C. THE INSCRIPTION FOR THE FAMILY TOMB OF EUTYCHES
4 sources

Location: possibly Akmonia (now in the Izmir Museum)

Translation:
The year AD. 278/279, ...
...
memorial, both Christians,
...

D. INSCRIPTION FOR THE FAMILY TOMB OF AURELIA JULIA
Gibson pg103-104 & Tabbernee #21

Location: Akmonia

Translation:
On Fascia of the Moulding:
A.D. 296/297

On Shaft:
Aurelia J...
...
memorial. All Christians.

And so it goes! These locations a diverse. Can they all really be explained by later chiselling? I read your review, but do not have Gibson's book of course. You raise some interesting points, but a number of scholars have looked at this material and inscriptions with a date plus explicit "Christians" look fairly conclusive to me. Also, that is but a few pages of Snyder.

I have only just received the book and have only delved in here and there, recently at your prompting. I'll sit down in front of the fire now and give it a more systematic read.

mountainman

I think the books are very similar. The citations
above match a number of citations in Gibson's
book, which I have finished.

Dont forget that such scholars were well funded
for the expedition to find things, and the "collectors"
in the holy lands have seen many centuries of such
pilgrimage to find an inscription.

I am not saying all these inscriptions are "added
by a later hand" but neither am I about to accept
unconditionally that a stone in a mosque in Altintas
town houses irrefutable proof of being "christian"
despite the best academic intentions of 18th, 19th
and 20th century "Ecclesiatical Archeologists",
who were out in the fields trying to find evidence
of their own expectations (ie: prenicene christianity).

Thus I reserve the right to place these citations
on an exceptions register, which I have done, in
an obeyance, until further information arrives.

I hope you see this as a reasonable position.
Best wishes for now,


Pete

youngalexander

You should really spend the A$40 Pete, the first few chapters will give you ample ammo on that line!

Grrrr, I am beginning to think that you have a point. However, I do not believe your 'thesis' for a moment.

Pissing in the wind!

I am a forgiving soul, concerning my fellow scientists. My bent is Atmospheric, but as a physicist if a biologist argues cogently (& they do) that evolution is ridgy-didge, well OK. If an archeologist argues ... and bearing in mind that Achy is highly multidisciplinary ... that X is pre-Constantine, etc - then I am inclined to believe them.

After all, when I tell you that GW is real - you would be wise to believe me.

mountainman

Your fellow scientists work with theories.
At the foundation of all theories are postulates.

There is no guarantee that GW, for example,
is the correct theory. Its just one of many
competing theories in the field of Atmospheric
Science. How many times in the last few
hundred years have we had new theories
that surplant old theories?

A theory does not come attached with a little
label which says "Congratulations! Search no
further. You have found the ulitmate theory."

I prefer to remain cautious, and leave your
wisdom, in this instance, in obeyance.

Best wishes,


Pete

youngalexander

Altho this is not strictly C4C, I presume neither MM nor the mods will mind. I am working my way thru "Ante Pacem" by Snyder. See above for Contents.

I have learnt a great deal, adding this to Malina and assimilating all the other sociological stuff - phew!

Ch 3: Pictorial Representations, and
Ch 4: Pictorial Interpretations

Nails pre-Constantine Christianity.

Ch 5: Early Church Buildings, is rather fun.
I. The prize exhibit - Dura-Europos, Snyder pg131
If one accepts the graffito (#10 in the collection, p. 264) found on the first layer of plaster in room 4 as the date of the building of the house, then sometime between 232-233 and 256 the house was converted for use as a Christian meeting place.
Pg 264, #10:

A.D. 232/3
May Dorotheos be remembered.

This inscription is important because it was found under the present paint coating, giving us a probable date for the building of the house as a private dwelling.

Yes, Pete. I have read your lengthy exchange with spin re this matter, and perused the websites etc..

IV. The Tituli Churches of Rome
Titulus Clementis - nogo, boo, I've been there and loved the 3rd C Mithraic School (which is legit).

Titulus Byzantis - hooray, a real winner.

In this remarkable complex building we can see the use of a third century shop as a Christian meeting place. The shop Christians eventually gained control of the entire insula so that about the time of Constantine they could create an aula ecclesiae above the row of shops and residences. When basilicas began to be constructed in Rome this aula, called titulis Byzantis (for unclear reasons), became the church called SS. Giovanni e Paolo.

Doncha love that archy, and its ability to tell the story of past human societies? My current favorite TV program is Time Team - and they have only three days to do it, you bet!

Titulus Crisogoni - is not too bad either

250-300 private room
280-310 meeting hall
350-380 appurtenances and divisions in the hall
375-400 insertion of confessio, cult of the saint, and alter
450- building of basilica

and so it goes.
Wait for my personal reminiscences of Ostia and the fish mosaic!

mountainman

What about the fish symbol itself?

I recall that the Flavian Emperors used
it on their coins but as far as its application
to the representation of something to do
with christianity, I have never been able
to determine its relevance.