Onias

Mary,
I do not agree with everything from the Xian source I had mentioned, and I only quoted the stuff that explores the original meaning of the Deuteronomy quote. Much of the rest is Xian blah, blah, blah in defense of how to shoehorn Paul's different view into it. But to harmonize Paul with the Torah is really impossible and laughable!

Getting back to basics, please read Shesshbazzar's recent post, which I quote in part below and please reply to it:

Sheshbazzar

Before someone else slaps me upside the head, I'll do it to myself.

On re-examination of Deut 21:23, I see that it consists of two separate clauses;
The 'his body must not remain all night on the tree' is not part of clause 2.

and clause 2 would have to read as 'for the one who is left exposed on a tree -ALL NIGHT- is cursed by God.'
for my reading and interpretation to have been correct.

By Torah Law a dead body becomes cursed of YHWH when placed on a tree/cross 'wood' immediately, and regardless of how short the duration.

I screwed up. Time to eat the pie. My apologies to Onias and all participants in this thread. And to the author of Gal 3:13.

I don't claim that I never make mistakes, but when I become aware that I have made one, I'll man up and 'fess up.

maryhelena

Thank you, Sheshbazzar, thank you :thumbs:

I was in the process of replying to Onias when your post came through my email....Onias wanted me to reply to the point you were making....

Yes, the curse relates to being hung on a tree, cross etc i.e. the curse relates to being suspended above the ground - dead or alive.

The curse relates to the suspension, the crucifixion itself. Why? Well, lets put god notions aside and just allow our humanity to focus on what is involved here:

A body, dead or alive, is suspended, often naked, on a tree, stake, cross etc. The suspension has lifted that body off the ground; it's feet no longer stand on terra-firma. The body, dead or alive, has been placed, as it were, in no-man's land. Why is this a curse? Respect for the body, respect for the dead body, is to respect the life that body has, or once had. If we do not have this respect for our physical reality - then we are truly accursed. Yes, heroic Jewish rebels got crucified by Rome - they do not escape the curse of being hung upon a tree. The humiliation, the shame, the curse, relates to being hung on a tree - not to the guilt or innocence of those so hung. They were placed, suspended, above the ground, outside the 'gate' - outside the moral, humanitarian compass by which our human lives need to function for a social/political environment to be beneficial.

Yes, of course, the crucifiers don't escape either - guilty of inhumanity to man. However, it's the suspension above the ground on a tree, cross etc, that warrants the curse - i.e. suspension is the physical situation that reflects a symbolic curse against, or rejection of, the supreme value of our physical body. The body has been separated, suspended, from it's natural habitat.

another1

Most Christian Churches won't allow dogs inside but overdressing will get you women there. Promise.

semiopen

To go back to Chapman's book.

In the introduction he analyzes a study by a guy name Baumgarten

("'Does tlh in the Temple Scroll refer to Crucifixion?") JBL 91, 1972, 472-81

Chapman comes up with nine reasons that Baumgarten's analysis is dubious.

It might be noted that Chapman does this twelve page analysis without resorting to throwing in any freaky-deeky Greek.

Baugarten's article was written in 1972, and at the moment I don't know any serious scholars who disagree with the JPS rendering of TLH as impale in the Tanakh.

If we accept TLH as impale, the idea of doing this to an already executed body is just fucking sick. The exegesis of this becomes wrong. I don't believe that a body was actually hung after execution and am curious to see how this objection can be answered.

Sheshbazzar

'Stoning with stones' (Lev 20:2, 20:27, 24:23, Num 14:10, 15:35, Deut 13:10, 17:5, 21:21, 22:21, 22:24, Eze 16:40, 23:47) is the the Commanded and accepted method of public executions (Judaisim came to also interpret this as including 'thowing the convicted off of cliff, unto the rocks')

The execution was, 'fucking sick' or not, often followed by putting the dead body up on a pole for public display as a warning to others, and as a final public humiliation, particularly in the case of particularly henious crimes, or with troublsome enemies as a public display of triumph over them.
The Bible nowhere specifically 'commands' the practice of 'hanging' or impaling corpses for public display, it simply acknowledges that the practice does exist, and limits the period of such displays to a single day.
(not like in more barbaric societies where dead bodies were left impaled on poles to rot and stink for months on end, as with the Neo-Assyrian King Ashurnasirpal II (r.883-859 BC) or 'Vald the Impaler')

semiopen

Shesh, I don't know a specific biblical passage that says that the body is hung after stoning.

Since you quote Deut 20:21,22, and 24 I have already replied that these passages are not clear. 21-22 is the drunken son who is only stoned. The subsequent passages probably do not relate to the drunken son without some kind of song and dance which nobody has bothered to explain.

I don't see any impalement/hanging here or here

I don't see an

I think there is a Talmudic song and dance that relates the drunken son passage to hanging. But, yes, the two verses are close together but it looks like two different topics. If that's the best evidence, that is very weak.

I agree that the Assyrians impaled but my understanding is that was how they executed the people. It's just silly to take a guy you stoned and then impale them. Why not impale them first and at least get the sadistic rush rather than make things more complicated with the stoning.

Sheshbazzar

There is none.

Perhaps you misunderstood my point. The Bible Commands stoning for certain acts.
The Bible DOES NOT anywhere command the impalement or hanging the corpse for any reason. __But people did it anyway.
People get pissed off, or want 'justice' and revenge and do such things.

All the Law of Deut 21:22-23 did was limit the barbaric practice to a single day. (daylight period)

semiopen

Thanks Shesh.

I think Deuteronomy 21:22 has to be the only place this is derived.

If a man is guilty of a capital offense and is put to death, and you impale him on a stake, (Deu 21:22 TNK)

וְכִֽי־יִהְיֶ֣ה בְאִ֗ישׁ חֵ֛טְא מִשְׁפַּט־מָ֖וֶת וְהוּמָ֑ת וְתָלִ֥יתָ אֹת֖וֹ עַל־עֵֽץ׃

This seems to be based on the two vavs in

וְהוּמָ֑ת וְתָלִ֥יתָ vehumat vetalita. and you put him to death, and [then] you impale him.

This is a possible understanding of the verse but hardly the most obvious or only one.

It might also be useful to compare these laws with the The Code of the Assura, c. 1075 BCE

These laws are similar to Deuteronomy but the only impaling example is -

She is crucified whether or not she is alive. The Assyrian version makes this crystal clear because it is an important point.

Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls: The History of Judaism, the Background of Christianity, the Lost Library of Qumran (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Lawrence Schiffman discusses the Temple Scroll

Note that the Temple Scroll interprets Deut 21:22 differently - not going apeshit over the two vavs. It also clearly states that the offenders die by hanging/impalement.

This also answers the objection about impalement not being specified in the Torah. I believe strangulation is also not mentioned in the Torah but it is a mode of execution in the Talmud.

Chili

The basis for Paul [the accursed] saying this is that the cross of eternal salvation is for sinners only who necessarily must stand convicted by their own concept of sin, based on their own law only that is different than civil Law wherein Caesar gets his dues no matter what.

They so are religion specific as given to Moses to convict Jews of sin that an Egyptian, for example, nor Catholic for that matter, can see or understand as conviction to him as Jew in this trial, or he would not be the agent used to crucify him as accursed by the Jews in the crowd.

They so are not legal proceedings but inner convictions only wherein the Jew must be crucified to set the man free in him, that there is called 'Israel' as land of his own in the promise made to Moses wherein darkness shall be no more, and that is the reason why the corpse shall not be left hanging while it is dark outside as that would be an insult to the promise once made.

And here is that Lexischemy again wherein "Time flies like the wind and fruit flies like the heat."