Freethought & Rationalism Archive

12-09-2003, 08:48 AM

I went to the joint NSS/Libre Pens�e meeting about the Constitution in Paris at the weekend.

It was encouraging that so many atheist/freethinking/humanist organisations were represented. But it is awful to hear from delegates from eastern European countries, such as Slovakia, where since the fall of communism the Catholic Church has moved in to fill its place and has established a Talibanesque regime.

The rest of Europe is now under threat of antidemocratic church power if the draft Article 51 is allowed to stand.

Article 51 of the draft Constitution gives churches the absolute right to be consulted by every institutions of the Union on all and any matter of their choosing. In response to a request from H.E. Dr Michael Weninger, religious affairs advisor to European Commission President Romano Prodi, the Commission of the Bishops Conference of the European Community and the Conference of European Churches have proposed that this provision of the Constitution be implemented by means of:

A " pre-legislative consultative procedure " involving the churches and advisors to the President of the European Commission.
Regular " working sessions " on specific projects of particular interest to the churches.
" Presidential-level " meetings with senior church representatives.
The creation of a " Liaison Office " within the Commission to facilitate contacts between the various Commission services and the churches and religious communities.

If Article 51 is allowed to stand, the churches will have an unrestricted right of access to all levels of government guaranteed by the Constitution; a right unique in western democracy to stifle any socially progressive legislation even before it is drafted and brought before the democratically-elected representatives of the people in the European Parliament. With such a right in place there could no longer be even a pretence of church-state separation, the churches will have achieved their ambition of controlling the European legislature, and Europe will have taken a giant step back towards medieval theocracy.
Yet none of this is necessary. As a number of members of the Constitutional Convention have themselves pointed out, there are already adequate provisions for freedom of religion and for consultation between the Commission and civil society contained in other articles, notably Articles 9, 10 and 46.

I quote from a private message from the meeting:

Quote:

The meeting expressed grave disquiet that clause 1 of Article 51, viz "The Union respects and does not prejudice the status under national law of churches and religious associations or communities in the Member States" would legitimise historical privileges. If article 51 were to be accepted, the Union would be powerless to intervene, however undemocratic or repressive the terms of any historical or future agreements between the Church and a Member State might be. A privilege for some implies discrimination for others and violates the principle of state neutrality. European institutions have an obligation of fairness and justice towards all citizens.

The provision for dialogue under Article 51 is a repetition of a provision of the Charter of Fundamental Rights. However, it is significant that dialogue as envisaged by Article 51 will mean a subversion of the democratic process. All citizens of Europe enjoy adult franchise, and are represented through their elected political representatives. Double representation would subvert the democratic process, specially when the Union will seek to dialogue with Churches and other religious institutions which are not democratically organised.

In conclusion we wish to point out that adoption of article 51 of the proposed European Constitution will run contrary to the spirit of article 3 of the UN Declaration on the Elimination of all Forms of Intolerance and Discrimination on the basis of Religion or Belief which specifically states "discrimination between human beings on the grounds of religion or belief constitutes an affront to human dignity and a disavowal of the principles of the Charter of the United Nations, and shall be condemned as a violation of the human rights and fundamental freedoms".

We urge you to ensure at your forthcoming meeting in Rome that Article 51 be deleted in its entirety.

Time is short. If you are an EU citizen, please write urgently to your representatives in both your national parliament and the European Parliament to oppose this measure. All citizens have a democratic voice via their elected representatives. Why should some also have unelected representatives speaking on their behalf?

Malcolm · 12-09-2003, 11:47 AM

Dear DMB,

Thank you for alerting us to this miserable Article 51.

I have just finished writing to all 11 of our South East MEPs - something I have never done before. I hope that the message gets through if enough of us bombard them with objections. I hope you don't mind the fact that I did a bit of copy and paste from your post.

Regards,

Malcolm

SLD · 12-09-2003, 02:42 PM

STOP THEM. STOP THEM AT ALL COSTS.

The Church is attempting to take back what it lost long ago. You must not allow this to happen. If so, you indeed will find your freedoms curtailed as they were so long ago. You will wake up one day, maybe quite a while into the future, and find that all the other protections for religious freedom in your Constitution are nothing but meaningless words because courts and bureacrats will give them only lipservice.

I don't know if your EU representatives would be much inspired by James Madison's views on the matter, but please send them a copy of his Memorial and Remonstrance, as well as a copy of his many letters and other writings on the issue of Church and State separation. Also look at some of the things Thomas Jefferson said about Church-State issues.

However, I would bet that your representatives are probably already opposed, but that those in Eastern Europe should be your target. Even though you are not in their constituency, perhaps they are the ones to be targetted. They also may revere Madison and Jefferson more so than those in the "mother country" who they managed to seriously piss off 225 years ago.

Or perhaps I don't understand EU politics

SLD

RufusAtticus · 12-09-2003, 02:50 PM

[European Atheist]That's it, I'm moving to America![/European Atheist]

shome42 · 12-09-2003, 06:24 PM

I'll admit...I didn't read your post carefully, nor do I fully understand Article 51, but hey, I'll comment anyway.

Isn't it the case that Western Europe's people are rapidly becoming secular? If that's the case, won't things like this eventually work themselves out? I can't see the church maintaining power over a growing number of people who reject it.

Where am I off?

_Naturalist_ · 12-10-2003, 03:09 AM

It's unbelievable that Europe, of all places, would return to give churches more power. Stupidity is what it is. Aren't we supposed to be relatively secular? I'm amazed that there are people, human beings with educations, that think it's a wonderful thing to move government and religion as close as possible. Let religion be a personal thing that has absolutely NO effect on the government and its work.

12-10-2003, 04:07 AM

The religious situation in Europe is complicated. Most of the population of Western Europe is becoming increasingly secular. Since the fall of communism, however, the countries in the East have seen a religious revival. The catholic church is in a particularly strong position, because they were seen as the main anti-communist force for many years and they are still basking in the afterglow. Moreover, the 10 countries due to join the EU are all predominately catholic

It is the Vatican that is behind this attempt to write anti-democratic church privileges into the Constitution. I am most concerned with the part of Article 51 that would allow churches to be consulted before bills are presented to parliaments, but there is another part of the Article that some believe can be construed as setting in stone all privileges currently enjoyed by churches in any member countries. Thus, if, say, England decided to disestablish the CofE, it would then need the agreement of the rest of the EU.

Anyone who has seen the political operations of the Vatican over a number of years knows how they manoeuvre behind the scenes for power. They are not pro-democracy, except where they can exploit it.

The draft Constitution is a nightmare anyway, when you compare it with the American one. It arose as an attempt to make the EU more democraticlly accountable and transparent. Ha! Ha!

If anyone wants to write to their representatives, please feel free to cut and paste from the quote I gave above.

contracycle · 12-10-2003, 04:13 AM

Hmm. This is bad, but I cannot see Blair the Pious objecting. He's even been considering converting to Catholicism from Anglicanism. I imagine he's likely to be quite sympathetic to this.

azidhak · 12-10-2003, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RufusAtticus
[European Atheist]That's it, I'm moving to America![/European Atheist]

You don't have to go that far. Norway's outside the EU, and we got oil!
Haakon

andy_d · 12-10-2003, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DMB
Since the fall of communism, however, the countries in the East have seen a religious revival. The catholic church is in a particularly strong position, because they were seen as the main anti-communist force for many years and they are still basking in the afterglow. Moreover, the 10 countries due to join the EU are all predominately catholic

I don't think the situation is quite as homogenous as you have portrayed here.

I've recently been in the Czech Republic (one of the nations due to join next year) I was interested to hear that in that country only 40% of the population declared any religious affiliation whatsoever in a recent census.

That would make it one of the most atheist countries in Europe, if not absolutely the most. Certainly Czechs seem highly sceptical of organised religion. From what I understand this goes deeper than the influence of communism in later years. They've just been the epicentre of too many religious wars (Hussites, 30-years War, etc)

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12-09-2003, 11:47 AM	#2
Malcolm Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 124	Dear DMB, Thank you for alerting us to this miserable Article 51. I have just finished writing to all 11 of our South East MEPs - something I have never done before. I hope that the message gets through if enough of us bombard them with objections. I hope you don't mind the fact that I did a bit of copy and paste from your post. Regards, Malcolm

12-09-2003, 02:42 PM	#3
SLD Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Birmingham, Alabama Posts: 4,109	STOP THEM. STOP THEM AT ALL COSTS. The Church is attempting to take back what it lost long ago. You must not allow this to happen. If so, you indeed will find your freedoms curtailed as they were so long ago. You will wake up one day, maybe quite a while into the future, and find that all the other protections for religious freedom in your Constitution are nothing but meaningless words because courts and bureacrats will give them only lipservice. I don't know if your EU representatives would be much inspired by James Madison's views on the matter, but please send them a copy of his Memorial and Remonstrance, as well as a copy of his many letters and other writings on the issue of Church and State separation. Also look at some of the things Thomas Jefferson said about Church-State issues. However, I would bet that your representatives are probably already opposed, but that those in Eastern Europe should be your target. Even though you are not in their constituency, perhaps they are the ones to be targetted. They also may revere Madison and Jefferson more so than those in the "mother country" who they managed to seriously piss off 225 years ago. Or perhaps I don't understand EU politics SLD

12-09-2003, 02:50 PM	#4
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	[European Atheist]That's it, I'm moving to America![/European Atheist]

12-09-2003, 06:24 PM	#5
shome42 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 1,001	I'll admit...I didn't read your post carefully, nor do I fully understand Article 51, but hey, I'll comment anyway. Isn't it the case that Western Europe's people are rapidly becoming secular? If that's the case, won't things like this eventually work themselves out? I can't see the church maintaining power over a growing number of people who reject it. Where am I off?

12-10-2003, 03:09 AM	#6
_Naturalist_ Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Sweden Posts: 5,914	It's unbelievable that Europe, of all places, would return to give churches more power. Stupidity is what it is. Aren't we supposed to be relatively secular? I'm amazed that there are people, human beings with educations, that think it's a wonderful thing to move government and religion as close as possible. Let religion be a personal thing that has absolutely NO effect on the government and its work.

12-10-2003, 04:07 AM	#7
DMB Guest Posts: n/a	The religious situation in Europe is complicated. Most of the population of Western Europe is becoming increasingly secular. Since the fall of communism, however, the countries in the East have seen a religious revival. The catholic church is in a particularly strong position, because they were seen as the main anti-communist force for many years and they are still basking in the afterglow. Moreover, the 10 countries due to join the EU are all predominately catholic It is the Vatican that is behind this attempt to write anti-democratic church privileges into the Constitution. I am most concerned with the part of Article 51 that would allow churches to be consulted before bills are presented to parliaments, but there is another part of the Article that some believe can be construed as setting in stone all privileges currently enjoyed by churches in any member countries. Thus, if, say, England decided to disestablish the CofE, it would then need the agreement of the rest of the EU. Anyone who has seen the political operations of the Vatican over a number of years knows how they manoeuvre behind the scenes for power. They are not pro-democracy, except where they can exploit it. The draft Constitution is a nightmare anyway, when you compare it with the American one. It arose as an attempt to make the EU more democraticlly accountable and transparent. Ha! Ha! If anyone wants to write to their representatives, please feel free to cut and paste from the quote I gave above.

12-10-2003, 04:13 AM	#8
contracycle Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: London Posts: 1,425	Hmm. This is bad, but I cannot see Blair the Pious objecting. He's even been considering converting to Catholicism from Anglicanism. I imagine he's likely to be quite sympathetic to this.

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