Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dharma · 05-16-2005, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Actually, the more likely route of Buddhism getting to America - if it did - is via the Pacific coast - what is the earliest proven Chinese find now on the Pacific coast of N America?

And the so called native american ways of thinking I thought were more to do with earlier shamanistic and similar ideas, so buddhism can be understood as a later formalisation of existing ideas about how to treat one another.

HG Wells Outline of History is very interesting on this change from collective to heirarchical ways of being, that probably happened with the first towns and cities.

http://economics.sbs.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/maize.html

well one wonders if the current understanding of the "isolation" and "independant development" of south American culture can be defended. I suppose more research has to be done on this account, and indeed it would be exciting if in fact there was trade. I think there was a huge controversy in the archeological world when a statue of a Goddess was found holding what looked like corn was found in southern India. Corn is obviously native to the Americas and not to India...there have been several people questioning that.

However would it be the Chinese or the Hindus who have as a part of their culture the concepts of the "cycles of ages" which they have in common with the Mayans as well as the concept of the zero, which was developed with supposed independence in both cultures.

Dharma · 05-16-2005, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yummyfur

Sorry this post is late, I had not paid attention to this thread since it had spiraled into general vague proofs of buddhisms influence in general, away from it's original topic. I hadn't noticed you addressed points I made.

Obviously you didn't actually read the Latin, or you would have said the Latin used is Tuistonem. In fact there are different manuscripts of Tacitus, some have Tuistonem here, some have Tuisconem. Tacitus doesn't say Tuisco is born of a earth goddess, he says he is earth born. By the way, since Tacitus discusses the German Earth goddess, equivalent to the the Roman Terra Mater, as Nerthus, he would have made it clear by either of these titles that Tuisco was born from her.

I don't find the geneolgies very convincing. Saranyu is Tvastr's daughter sure, but Tvastr is architect to the gods and possibly hermaphroditic, I'm not sure he was born from the earth goddess, not that it matters.

Incorrect, again this is discussing the lineage of Man to the gods and this myth is not found in other indo-European peoples such as the Greeks, etc. One wonders why they have a partial myth...where are their Vedas or myth books which discuss this derivation of their race...NONE FOUND...heck it is even forgotten that "man" is in fact derived from a myth of the first man unless you look into the Hinduism.

Quote:

What the Hebrew Adam comes from, is a pretty complex question, which I think there have been a thread or two about, but since his name is used for mankind and vice versa it doesn't really matter. I don't think anyone doubts that German is an indo-european language, and that indo-european language based cultures have some commonalities in culture from whenever they split off, but these hardly constitute proof of buddhisms influence.

I'm not sure what the correction is about on the top-knot, my only statement was that a top knot is hardly a unique trait of buddhism or even India. Imagine people figuring out how to tie their hair, without the help of buddhist enlightenment(sarcasm).

Your arguments are much like: birds have wings, butterflys have wings, bats have wings, they all must be closely related.

Incorrect...if you say"indoeuropeans" you are talking about the same group of birds who have the same hairstyles... :thumbs:

Clivedurdle · 05-16-2005, 11:06 AM

North American History

See 1405 on this page.

Is there or is there not a wreck of a fifteenth century Chinese Junk in the Sacramento River California - pre Columbus?

Toto · 05-16-2005, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

North American History

See 1405 on this page.

Is there or is there not a wreck of a fifteenth century Chinese Junk in the Sacramento River California - pre Columbus?

Be skeptical

Quote:

As legends go, the “Sacramento junk�? story is a youngster, dating back only to the mid 1930s, when two farmers, drilling for water in an orange grove near Glenn, California, struck something hard and pulled up a chunk of grayish metal, the color of lead though much harder. John Birch, principal of the Willows grammar school, took a piece to an unnamed expert at Red Bluff, California, “... who came back with the surprising conclusion that the metal might be from a piece of Chinese armor.�? (Walt Wiley, “Sir Francis Wong? Mystery Of An Ancient Chinese Explorer�?, Sacramento Bee, Sunday, November 30, 1975, Section B, page 1, [replate]). Gavin changes this to “of medieval Chinese origin (p. 204)�?, but that is his spin, an attempt to place it in the fifteenth century. And see page 227: Gavin transforms the “Chinese armor�? into “iron woks�?!

also here

andrewcriddle · 05-16-2005, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Smile of the Buddha – "Long before the word 'missionary' came to be synonymous with Christianity"
Buddhist monks ('dharma-bhanakas') were traipsing across Asia. Travelling the Silk and Spice Routes
they spread their doctrines all the way from Khotan in central Asia to Antioch and Alexandria in the west.
One such visit is documented in 20 BC in Athens. A Buddhist philosopher, part of an embassy from India,
made a doctrinal point by setting himself alight.
His tomb became a tourist attraction and is mentioned by several historians.

This incident is discussed at http://www.adolphus.nl/xcrpts/xcsedlar.html

Quote:

One of these Indian missions came to Augustus from a ruler called Poros, or Pandion - the latter name almost surely a reference to the Pandhya country of south India. Pandion's envoys brought with them a letter to the Roman emperor written on a skin in the Greek language - clear evidence of previous encounters with Greeks in the Pandhya domains. .......................... Pandion's ambassadors were accompanied by a holy man who subsequently burned himself to death upon a pyre in a public place in Athens. This event undoubtedly caused a great stir among the onlookers, who were at a loss to account for its motivation. The epithet engraved on the dead man's tomb called him Zarmanochegas, i.e. ,shramanacharyas, or "teacher of the philosophers," [rather, teacher of ascetics] a name he had evidently chosen for himself. What sort of "philosopher" he was remains unclear. Possibly he was a Buddhist, since Buddhism at that time was in process of widespread expansion. [probably not, for acharya is a more Hindu term, vaishnavite even] On the other hand, Buddhist scriptures specifically prohibit suicide, though cases of this practice among Buddhists are known nonetheless; and Gautama himself is supposed to have condoned the act in one celebrated instance. Quite possibly St. Paul had Zarmanochegas in mind when he penned the famous passage to the Corinthians: "though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing."

The passages in square brackets are comments by the author of the page on the account being quoted.

The most important comment is that Zarmanochegas, i.e. ,shramanacharyas probably indicates that the philosopher involved was a Vaishnavite Hindu and not a Buddhist.

Andrew Criddle

Dharma · 05-16-2005, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

This incident is discussed at http://www.adolphus.nl/xcrpts/xcsedlar.html

The passages in square brackets are comments by the author of the page on the account being quoted.

The most important comment is that Zarmanochegas, i.e. ,shramanacharyas probably indicates that the philosopher involved was a Vaishnavite Hindu and not a Buddhist.

Andrew Criddle

nah, shraman is a term for any non-brahmanical title(Jain monks were also called shramans (Brahmin for Hindu), Acharya simply denotes someone with a high degree of spiritual ability...it's like a Phd in spirituality from Hogwarts...

shaman Look up shaman at Dictionary.com
1698, "priest of the Ural-Altaic peoples," probably via Ger. Schamane, from Rus. shaman, from Tungus shaman, which is perhaps from Chinese sha men "Buddhist monk," from Prakrit samaya-, from Skt. sramana-s "Buddhist ascetic."

oh yes...I forgot, so now your argument is that Hindus reached Europe but not the Buddhists?

andrewcriddle · 05-17-2005, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma

nah, shraman is a term for any non-brahmanical title(Jain monks were also called shramans (Brahmin for Hindu), Acharya simply denotes someone with a high degree of spiritual ability...it's like a Phd in spirituality from Hogwarts...

although Acharya is found in early Buddhism as a term for a spiritual teacher the more common term is IIUC Upadhyaya.

In later Buddhism particularly Tantric influenced forms Acharya becomes much more prominent as a title.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma

oh yes...I forgot, so now your argument is that Hindus reached Europe but not the Buddhists?

Doubtless both occasionally reached the West but Hindus were probably more frequent. There were far more Hindus than Buddhists in India at the time.

Andrew Criddle

Dharma · 05-17-2005, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

although Acharya is found in early Buddhism as a term for a spiritual teacher the more common term is IIUC Upadhyaya.

In later Buddhism particularly Tantric influenced forms Acharya becomes much more prominent as a title.

Doubtless both occasionally reached the West but Hindus were probably more frequent. There were far more Hindus than Buddhists in India at the time.

Andrew Criddle

hmm, in 20 bce there were far more Hindus? I think by this time Buddhism and Hinduism kindof became mixed in India, and I think Mahayana paved the way for this to happen ( as I think it paved the way for Christianity to happen) since around this time the north was still largely patronized by Buddhist kings or kings who had families who were in both (Harsha Vardhana was, Baladitya were both scions of Gupta kings who were Buddhist)...I think even the south was more mixed (hindu/buddhist/jain)..?

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05-16-2005, 11:06 AM	#73
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	North American History See 1405 on this page. Is there or is there not a wreck of a fifteenth century Chinese Junk in the Sacramento River California - pre Columbus?

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