Freethought & Rationalism Archive

andrewcriddle · 05-02-2005, 02:08 PM

IF there was a Buddhist group in Alexandria at the time of Philo then one would expect the earlier Sanskrit Sthaviravada to be used rather than the later Pali Theravada.

See Theravada for a discussion of the issues. (I'm using the wayback machine because I can't find the article anymore at beliefnet )

Andrew Criddle

Answerer · 05-03-2005, 07:40 AM

Andrew, I think the main thing they are talking about, is this .

To quote one part from that link:

Quote:

Religious influences
Although the philosophical systems of Buddhism and Christianity have evolved in rather different ways, the moral precepts advocated by Buddhism from the time of Ashoka through his edicts do have a very strong similarity with the Christian moral precepts developed more than two centuries later: respect for life, respect for the weak, rejection of violence, pardon to sinners, tolerance.

These similarities may indicate the propagation of Buddhist ideals into the Western World, the Greeks acting as intermediaries and religious syncretists: "Scholars have often considered the possibility that Buddhism influenced the early development of Christianity. They have drawn attention to many parallels concerning the births, lives, doctrines, and deaths of the Buddha and Jesus" (Bentley, "Old World Encounters"). The story of the birth of the Buddha was well known in the West, and possibly influenced the story of the birth of Jesus: Saint Jerome (4th century CE) mentions the birth of the Buddha, who he says "was born from the side of a virgin". Also a fragment of Archelaos of Carrha (278 CE) mentions the Buddha's virgin-birth.

The main Greek cities of the Middle-East happen to have played a key role in the development of Christianity, such as Antioch and especially Alexandria, and “it was later in this very place that some of the most active centers of Christianity were established�? (Robert Linssen, “Zen living�?).

To me, its still mostly speculation. I have no wish to repeat my stand in this thread (As I did in NARP).

But I hope those people here who is well-versed in christianity or Greece history here in this forum will play a part in bringing out the actual facts.

My thanks..... :notworthy :notworthy

Clivedurdle · 05-03-2005, 08:38 AM

Is this guy the model for Jesus?

Quote:

The British author H. G. Wells wrote of Ashoka: "In the history of the world there have been thousands of kings and emperors who called themselves 'Their Highnesses', 'Their Majesties' and 'Their Exalted Majesties' and so on. They shone for a brief moment, and as quickly disappeared. But Ashoka shines and shines brightly like a bright star, even unto this day."

Wikipedia Ashoka

andrewcriddle · 05-03-2005, 09:48 AM

One probable reference to Buddhism in an early Christian writer is Clement of Alexandria Stromateis Book 1

Quote:

The Indian gymnosophists are also in the number, and the other barbarian philosophers. And of these there are two classes, some of them called Sarmanae, and others Brahmins. And those of the Sarmanae who are called Hylobii neither inhabit cities, nor have roofs over them, but are clothed in the bark of trees, feed on nuts, and drink water in their hands. Like those called Encratites in the present day, they know not marriage nor begetting of children.
Some, too, of the Indians obey the precepts of Buddha; whom, on account of his extraordinary sanctity, they have raised to divine honours.

Clement is apparently basing this on the earlier Greek writer Megasthenes.

It is generally (but not universally) thought that the Sarmanae were Buddhists and that the word is derived from the Sanskrit Shramana (monk or ascetic)

Andrew Criddle

Dharma · 05-03-2005, 10:09 AM

The early Buddhists of northwestern India were also fluent in BOTH Greek and Aramaic -- both languages considered to be classical languages of the original Gospels...Greco-Aramaic inscriptions were found on Ashokan pillars in Afghanistan:

http://www.indiaprofile.com/monument...scriptions.htm

Quote:

One bilingual edict in Afghanistan is written in Aramaic and Greek. Ashoka's edicts have survived over the period of centuries is because they are written on the rocks and stone pillars. There is every possibility that there must have been many more edicts, although only ten with inscriptions survive today

Dharma · 05-03-2005, 10:15 AM

Here is an edict quote from Ashoka declaring the victory of the Dhamma throughout the world:

"Conquest by Dhamma"
"Now it is conquest by Dhamma that Beloved-of-the-Gods considers to be the best conquest ...

And conquest by Dhamma has been won here, on the borders, even six hundred yojanas away, where the Greek king Antiochos rules, beyond there where the four kings named Ptolemy, Antigonos, Magas and Alexander rule ...
Here in the king’s domain among the Greeks, the Kambojas, the Nabhakas ... everywhere people are following Beloved-of-the-Gods’ instructions in Dhamma.
Even where Beloved-of-the-Gods’ envoys have not been, these people too, having heard of the practice of Dhamma and the ordinances and instructions in Dhamma given by Beloved-of-the-Gods, are following it and will continue to do so ...

This conquest has been won everywhere, and it gives great joy – the joy which only conquest by Dhamma can give. But even this joy is of little consequence. Beloved-of-the-Gods considers the great fruit to be experienced in the next world to be more important.

I have had this Dhamma edict written so that my sons and great-grandsons ... consider making conquest by Dhamma only, for that bears fruit in this world and the next."

Quote:

http://www.christreview.com/Buddhism.html

Link to website

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

Christianity copied from Buddhism

. . .
Speculation of a link between Christianity and Buddhism first arose as a result of the translation of Buddhist texts into European languages during the British colonisation of India.

Smile of the Buddha –

Long before the word 'missionary' came to be synonymous with Christianity" Buddhist monks ('dharma-bhanakas') were traipsing across Asia. Travelling the Silk and Spice Routes they spread their doctrines all the way from Khotan in central Asia to Antioch and Alexandria in the west.

One such visit is documented in 20 BC in Athens. A Buddhist philosopher, Zarmarus, part of an embassy from India, made a doctrinal point by setting himself alight. His tomb became a tourist attraction and is mentioned by several historians.

Clearly, the evangelists of Buddha were committed to their cause. Is it simply coincidence that the hero of the Buddhist tale is just a tad similar to the Christian superman? In both the story of the Buddha and the story of Jesus we read of a mystic or holy man, travelling from village to village. Each lives off the hospitality of the people and gets into trouble with the ruling elite by ignoring social status and taking food and refuge from prostitutes.

Is it just possible that the miracles ascribed to Jesus merely mimic the tricks practised by the 'holy men' in India?

Alexander and Asoka

Alexander (336-323 BC) carried Greek civilization to the east. Cities along the trade route – Merv, Bactra, Taxila etc. – became Greek military colonies. The Indian province in the north west – Gandhara – had been a Persian satrap before the arrival of the Greeks and here, in the 2nd century BC, Greek kingdoms with a distinctive Graeco-Bactrian culture emerged.

But the flow of culture was two way – for example, the Greeks adopted the Indian war elephant and a great deal of speculative Indian thinking. Greek philosophers, like Anaxarchus and Pyrrho, had been in the train of Alexander and had mixed with the Indian gymnosophists or 'naked philosophers.' Even the more ancient Pythagoreans may have been influenced by Indian ideas – vegetarianism, communal property and the 'transmigration of souls.'

. . .

Copyright © 2004 by Kenneth Humphreys.

<snip copy and paste - please use the more readable 2nd link above>

Dharma · 05-03-2005, 10:16 AM

Where Did They Get Their Ideas From?
More than two dozen story elements borrowed from the Buddha

Pre-existence.
Royal origin and genealogy.
Virginal Conception by mother/Virgin Birth.
Dream Vision.
White Elephant / White Dove parallel.
Annunciation to the Husband.
Angels and others at birth.
The Taming of Wild Animals.
The Miracles of the Bending Tree and Gushing Water.
Healing Miracles.
Sage recognition - Asita / Simeon parallel
Fast in wilderness / temptation by the devil.
Preparing the Way.
Reference to Signs
Offer of universal Salvation.

BIRTH of the Saviour

The conception and birth of Christ in the Gospel of Luke has an uncanny resemblance to
the birth stories of Buddha.
In both cases the mother was a paragon of virtue, had a vision and, without sex, became pregnant
with an extraordinary child.
Each was delivered while the mother was on a journey and their births were both announced by angels.
After the birth of Buddha a hermit sage, who had heard the celebrations of angels,
was told by them that the infant would sit on the throne of enlightenment.
In the Christian story, the angels appeared and told shepherds that a child was born who is Christ the Lord.
Both narratives stress that holy people came to pay homage to the world's savior.

Essenes – esoteric Buddhists?

The Essenes were a monastic order having much in common with contemporary Buddhists.
Most lived an austere existence in the desert where they eschewed
the animal sacrifice of the Jerusalem temple priesthood (they were vegetarians).
Renouncing all normal enjoyments, they lived without personal property, money or
woman (they recruited from new-comers.)
The Essenes extolled the merits of asceticism, penance, and self-torture.
They were, however, interested in the magical arts and the occult sciences.
They believed in the pre-existence of the soul and in angels as divine intermediaries or messengers from God.

Influence of Buddhism on the Christians – Q?
Close, striking parallels exist between early Buddhist texts and what Bible scholars
postulate as the 'Q' material – ('Q' is shorthand for Quelle, the German for 'source').
The earliest translations of Buddhist texts into Greek date back to the time of king Asoka (3rd century BC).

It seems highly probable that the core of the body of Q material was made up of aphorisms,
sayings originally ascribed to the Buddha but later attributed to Jesus.
To these sayings were added mini-stories and micro-scenes to produce what became the
Gospels of Matthew and Luke.

Aphorisms

From the Dhammapada, Buddha's observation:
"The faults of others are more easily seen than one's own, but seeing one's own failings is difficult."

Compare to Gospel of Thomas Saying 26
"You see the mote which is in your brother's eye; but you do not see the beam which is in your own eye."
This subsequently was given a more theatrical flourish when it became Matthew 7:3
"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? "

From the Dhammapada:
"When a mendicant, though still young, yokes himself to the Buddha's teachings,
the world is illuminated like the moon freed of clouds."
Jesus's statement:
"He who wishes to follow me must know himself and bear my yoke."

The Mûlasarvâstivâdavinaya begins with a long list of kings.
This is combined with a list of the last seven Buddhas, to give three periods
of “fourteen generations�? and a total of 42 – an identical format to the Gospel of Matthew!

Love?
The whole idea that man should care about his brother,
that he should accept responsibility for society as a whole or for needy human beings in particular,
clearly precedes Christianity – in Greek thought and in Buddhism.

The Buddha's philosophy of compassion, his vision of Dhamma, the eternal law that sustains the
cosmos, manifests itself among humanity as the moral law.

The Buddha's most celebrated dictum is:
"Hostility is never conquered by hostility in this world; hostility is conquered by love. That is the eternal law."

500 Witnesses
"After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater
part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep."
1 Corinthians 15:6
Buddhist tradition states that shortly after the passing away of the Buddha five hundred of
his Arhats and disciples met in council at Rajagaha for the purpose of recalling to mind the
truths they had heard directly from their hero during the forty-five years of his teachings.

The Coptic biblical text actually identifies the 500 as 'Indian Brahmans'!

In short, we find opportunity, motive, method, location and scriptural evidence,
for a profound and detailed Buddhist influence in Christianity's origins.
That it was so cannot be doubted.

Clivedurdle · 05-03-2005, 11:35 AM

Quote:

The Coptic biblical text actually identifies the 500 as 'Indian Brahmans'!

Is this correct?

Could we actually have Q - in Buddhist teachings?

Toto · 05-03-2005, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

The Coptic biblical text actually identifies the 500 as 'Indian Brahmans'!

Is this correct?

Could we actually have Q - in Buddhist teachings?

This is from Kenneth Humphrey's page. He lists his sources as:

Sources:

Quote:

Symposium on “ The Sanskrit and Buddhist Sources of the New Testament" Klavreström, Sweden 9/11 2003

Z. P. Thundy, Buddha and Christ: Nativity Stories and Indian Traditions (Leiden, 1993)

L. Adelskogh, Jesus in Comparative Light

E. R. Gruber, H. Kersten,The Original Jesus (Element Books, 1995)

J. Duncan M. Derrett, The Bible and the Buddhists (Sardini 2000)

N. S. Chandramoul, Did Buddhism influence early Christianity? (The Times of India May 1, 1997)

Christian Lindtner, www.radikalkritik.de , http://jesusisbuddha.com

It is possible that Buddhism influenced early Christianity, but there were also Christian contacts with the east and many opportunities for Buddhists to borrow Christian themes before the British Raj encountered Hinduism - there were Nestorian missionaries, there was indirect influence through Islam, there were Genghis Khan's efforts, which seem to have spread Christian ideas around.

Lindtner's jesusisbuddha website has the most comprehensive theory:

Quote:

Dr. Countess (in his “Final Draft: 27 August 2003) refers to my thesis as the CLT - the Christian Lindtner Theory, and I will adopt this convenient abbreviation.

The CLT states, briefly, that the Gospels, perhaps even the NT as a whole, is a Pirate-copy of the Buddhist Gospels, or of the Buddha´s Testament. These terms will be defined in due course.

I have also spoken of translations, whereby I mean imitations. To be more precise, I should speak of Pirate-copies in the sense of universal imitations. When I speak of “universal�? imitations, I mean to say that the Gospels not only imitate the sense of the Sanskrit originals. The Gospels also imitate the form and the numerical values found at various levels in the original. When I speak of a Pirate-copy, I wish to suggest that the authors of the Gospels (and the NT as a whole) also wanted to keep their sources secret. The secret of the Christ, ho khristos, is the secret of the ksatriyas. The kingdom of heaven was “received without pay�?, Matthew 10:8, “and men of violence take it by force�?, Matthew 11:12. It is in this sense I speak of copies made by unknown pirates. The authors of the NT wished to remain unknown, exactly as the authors of the original Buddhist texts wished to remain unknow to posterity. It must always be kept in mind that the authors wished to keep their true identity secret.

. . .

The CLT has a simple answer to the Q problem. Q, understood as the source not only of Matthew, Mark and Luke, but even of John and the other writings of the NT, can, according to CLT, be defined in terms of the Buddhist sources in Sanskrit. These texts are , fortunately, still available to scholars.

Unfortunately, not all of them have been translated into modern languages. The main Buddhist sources are Mûlasarvâstivâdavinaya (MSV) and the Saddharmapundarîka (SDP). The Sukhâvatîvyûha is the source of Luke 10:17. The first words of Jesus are from the Prajnâpâramitâ. There are a few other Buddhist sources, and of course the numerous quotations from the Old Testament, but the main sources are, without any shadow of doubt, the MSV (parts of which, again, prove more important than others), and the SDP. The SDP is available in modern translations.

andrewcriddle · 05-03-2005, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

The Coptic biblical text actually identifies the 500 as 'Indian Brahmans'!

Is this correct?

Could we actually have Q - in Buddhist teachings?

I can't find any reference to this except the material at http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/buddha.html

Frankly it seems unlikely.

Andrew Criddle

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05-02-2005, 02:08 PM	#11
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	IF there was a Buddhist group in Alexandria at the time of Philo then one would expect the earlier Sanskrit Sthaviravada to be used rather than the later Pali Theravada. See Theravada for a discussion of the issues. (I'm using the wayback machine because I can't find the article anymore at beliefnet ) Andrew Criddle

05-03-2005, 10:16 AM	#17
Dharma Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: U.S. Posts: 1,398	Where Did They Get Their Ideas From? More than two dozen story elements borrowed from the Buddha Pre-existence. Royal origin and genealogy. Virginal Conception by mother/Virgin Birth. Dream Vision. White Elephant / White Dove parallel. Annunciation to the Husband. Angels and others at birth. The Taming of Wild Animals. The Miracles of the Bending Tree and Gushing Water. Healing Miracles. Sage recognition - Asita / Simeon parallel Fast in wilderness / temptation by the devil. Preparing the Way. Reference to Signs Offer of universal Salvation. BIRTH of the Saviour The conception and birth of Christ in the Gospel of Luke has an uncanny resemblance to the birth stories of Buddha. In both cases the mother was a paragon of virtue, had a vision and, without sex, became pregnant with an extraordinary child. Each was delivered while the mother was on a journey and their births were both announced by angels. After the birth of Buddha a hermit sage, who had heard the celebrations of angels, was told by them that the infant would sit on the throne of enlightenment. In the Christian story, the angels appeared and told shepherds that a child was born who is Christ the Lord. Both narratives stress that holy people came to pay homage to the world's savior. Essenes – esoteric Buddhists? The Essenes were a monastic order having much in common with contemporary Buddhists. Most lived an austere existence in the desert where they eschewed the animal sacrifice of the Jerusalem temple priesthood (they were vegetarians). Renouncing all normal enjoyments, they lived without personal property, money or woman (they recruited from new-comers.) The Essenes extolled the merits of asceticism, penance, and self-torture. They were, however, interested in the magical arts and the occult sciences. They believed in the pre-existence of the soul and in angels as divine intermediaries or messengers from God. Influence of Buddhism on the Christians – Q? Close, striking parallels exist between early Buddhist texts and what Bible scholars postulate as the 'Q' material – ('Q' is shorthand for Quelle, the German for 'source'). The earliest translations of Buddhist texts into Greek date back to the time of king Asoka (3rd century BC). It seems highly probable that the core of the body of Q material was made up of aphorisms, sayings originally ascribed to the Buddha but later attributed to Jesus. To these sayings were added mini-stories and micro-scenes to produce what became the Gospels of Matthew and Luke. Aphorisms From the Dhammapada, Buddha's observation: "The faults of others are more easily seen than one's own, but seeing one's own failings is difficult." Compare to Gospel of Thomas Saying 26 "You see the mote which is in your brother's eye; but you do not see the beam which is in your own eye." This subsequently was given a more theatrical flourish when it became Matthew 7:3 "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? " From the Dhammapada: "When a mendicant, though still young, yokes himself to the Buddha's teachings, the world is illuminated like the moon freed of clouds." Jesus's statement: "He who wishes to follow me must know himself and bear my yoke." The Mûlasarvâstivâdavinaya begins with a long list of kings. This is combined with a list of the last seven Buddhas, to give three periods of “fourteen generations�? and a total of 42 – an identical format to the Gospel of Matthew! Love? The whole idea that man should care about his brother, that he should accept responsibility for society as a whole or for needy human beings in particular, clearly precedes Christianity – in Greek thought and in Buddhism. The Buddha's philosophy of compassion, his vision of Dhamma, the eternal law that sustains the cosmos, manifests itself among humanity as the moral law. The Buddha's most celebrated dictum is: "Hostility is never conquered by hostility in this world; hostility is conquered by love. That is the eternal law." 500 Witnesses "After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep." 1 Corinthians 15:6 Buddhist tradition states that shortly after the passing away of the Buddha five hundred of his Arhats and disciples met in council at Rajagaha for the purpose of recalling to mind the truths they had heard directly from their hero during the forty-five years of his teachings. The Coptic biblical text actually identifies the 500 as 'Indian Brahmans'! In short, we find opportunity, motive, method, location and scriptural evidence, for a profound and detailed Buddhist influence in Christianity's origins. That it was so cannot be doubted.

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