Vorkosigan

I see.

Roger Pearse

Perhaps it would help this debate if I mention that, when I was at Oxford, one in three of the scientists known to me were Christians, including myself.

Well, I know of no rational reason to suppose that this assertion is correct, and I don't agree with it myself. It presupposes a rationalism which scientists themselves do not subscribe to, as a class.

I am uncomfortable with describing various religious beliefs as mentally ill, include this one (I have no opinion either way on this particular belief, which is a US thing), in view of the evil record of atheism in the last century, of the abuse of psychiatry by institutionally atheist regimes to torture Christians, using precisely the same rhetoric.

Let's be a little more open-minded here, please.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse

I certainly do, if it helps you. Although I was unable to work out why you asked.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Vorkosigan

All belief systems that legitimize their values in transcendent authority, socialize believers at a young age, posit absolute values, want party/church beliefs and structures to interpenetrate into daily life, erect structures of sin/thought control, etc, are the same, Roger. The Communists who legitimated their values in the Laws of History while torturing dissenters in psychiatric hospitals were the same as Catholics torturing Cathars, Nazis killing dissenters, Muslims slaughtering non-believers, the list is long, but it doesn't include humanistic atheists like Earl.

You've misdiagnosed here. The problem isn't atheism, but absolute values. Want to see a Communist? Look in the mirror. Communism is just Christianity with the serial numbers filed off....

Vorkosigan

sotto voce

Doubtless. But those beliefs are a very small minority of all beliefs; and they tend to oppose the majority of beliefs as their particular targets.

Those were not communists, they were state capitalists, and they outlawed believing dissenters (or even believing non-dissenters) at least as much as non-believers. The most fierce and persistent opposition by Catholics was to believers, many more than just Cathars. Nazis, aided by Catholicism, targeted believers. Muslims of course wiped out believers not of their own sort from N. Africa, and wherever sharia reigns now.

Roger Pearse

These statements seem to justify a hideous evil, or the rhetoric that supported it. To do so is to make ourselves complicit in the evil that was done. Nothing is ever justified by attempting to say "well they did it first". And when someone starts shrieking about how someone's beliefs are "insane", in the same language as the torturer ... we should SHIVER!!! It doesn't matter whether we agree with the belief; but we should smell the gulag, and be revolted.

Sincerely,

Roger Pearse

mountainman

I agree that it's just another crazy story and FWIW this appears to be essentially what Arius said to Constantine via Constantine's letter of c.333 CE:


Everyone thought it was crazy from the beginning.

Socrates critical questioning was from Nicaea suppressed and forbidden.

sotto voce

Many said it was crazy, from the beginning.

'Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for 'wisdom'; but we preach Christ crucified— a stumbling-block to Jews, and "foolishness" to Gentiles.' 1 Co 1:22-23

There is a difference between saying, and thinking. There is a difference between saying, and proving.

Vorkosigan

Second time you've missed this. Killing of dissidents is never justified, we both know that. Baiting me won't make this point less salient: Christianity, Nazism, Islam, Communism, Fascism, etc are all variations on the same theme, Roger. Legitimization of values in a transcendent authority, socialization into the belief at a young age, interpenetration of party/church and everyday life, party/church youth and adult groups, thought control/sin, etc etc etc. The same urgent need to control others, the same absolute moral ideals, the same massive body counts.

Just to bring this back to BCH, the emergent strain of orthodox christianity's proto-Leninist structure was one of the major features of its success.

Vorkosigan

EarlDoherty

Oh no, Roger! No that old canard about evil Stalinist and Hitlerian atheism! Hitler wasn't an atheist, nor was his regime, and Stalin did not kill in the name of atheism.

And what was that religious cult a decade or so ago that committed mass suicide thinking that they would be transported and reunited with some heavenly body following in the wake of a comet currently travelling through the solar system? Isn't that an example of someone's beliefs being "insane"?

How can you demonstrate that Christian beliefs aren't similarly insane? The God of the universe sends a part of himself to be tortured and murdered in order to placate himself and persuade himself to redeem humanity from sins just like that? That would be a crazy idea to anyone not indoctrinated into closing his mind to the irrationality of it all.

And what has proceeded from that crazy set of beliefs? Religious wars, inquisition, pogroms, conquest in the name of Jesus, division within everything from families to between nations, obsessive guilt over 'sin', fear of eternal damnation in unspeakable torture, denigration of this world, continuing modern denial of human rights and equality, opposition to birth control and abortion and medical research, attempted imposition of superstition as the basis of legislation, crippling of the effectiveness of government, whole segments of society awaiting their rapture to heaven....

And you don't call this a form of insanity?

And Roger, I have to say that I am shocked that you can still believe, in the early 21st century, in the existence of demons or that they cause illness. I can only shake my head. I guess to deny them would be to accept that the Jesus of the Gospels, as the very Son of God, was either mistaken or deceptive. Another example of the pernicious nature of religious belief, especially when based on primitive writings coming from a primitive time. One really gets caught in a bind.

Is that why you, sotto voce, refuse to admit whether you believe in demons or not? At least Roger has the courage of his convictions. Shame on you.

Earl Doherty