Freethought & Rationalism Archive

premjan · 02-07-2005, 03:33 PM

Does anyone know much about this epic poem? it is said to have about 2 million lines making it much longer than any other old epic poem (not sure how Vikram Seth or Alexander Pushkin stack up..). Is it considered classical poetry? What is the general theme? Is it still heard and known among Tibetans? What is its relation to Tibetan Vajrayana? How many "verses" is it? How much longer is it than say, the Iliad or Mahabharata?

Around when was it composed and by whom? When was it first written down?

Yeshi · 02-08-2005, 08:18 AM

its Gesar of Ling.

quick googling helps...

Khandro Net source

seems 25x the size of Illiad, also orally transmitted...

Sarpedon · 02-08-2005, 08:51 AM

One of my professors in College was working on translating it to english...this was seven years ago, I wonder how he's doing.

premjan · 02-08-2005, 09:22 AM

Mahabharata

Quote:

The Mahabharata is an ancient religious epic of India. It has existed in many different ways, mainly a text in ancient Sanskrit, which may also be the world’s largest book. It began at 24,000 couplets and gradually expanded to just over 100,000. The author of the Mahabharata is Vyasa, but due to its astounding length it is more likely to be the work of many hands.

Iliad is about 16,000 verses. Gesar is 25 times the length of the Iliad (wonder if that is in syllables, words, or lines? The lines of Gesar are somewhat short. E.g.

Quote:

If anyone does not know this place,
It is the Kingdom of Ling.
If anyone does not know me,
I am Ma Nene Karmo.
I live in the blue turquoise palace
In the Divine Paradise.

In Iliad-length verses, Gesar is about 400,000 verses. If the Iliad verses and Mahabharata couplets are comparable, then Geser is 4 times the length of the Mahabharata. I guess one could measure it syllabically (indicating how long it takes to sing) or in terms of words (the symbolic length). I guess Megabytes is another good way to measure it. Apparently there is a Kirgiz poem of 200,000 verses which is a contender:

Quote:

Obviously, it is not possible to deal with all of this, and a selection from other civilizations and their texts should be made. Actual selection of such texts can perhaps be made according to their significance and uniqueness as discussed briefly under the heading of 'Laurasian' myths. We would have to select representative texts from Eurasia and the Americas. They could include, from West to East, some of the following: the old Norse Edda, the Irish Epic Tain bo Cuailnge, the Finnish Kalevala, the Kirgiz Manas of 200,000 verses!, part of the Secret History of the Mongols, the Tibetan Gesar Epic, the Dayak cycle, the Ainu epic, the Hawaiian Kumuilipo, some Amerindian cycle such as that of the Winnebago, the Popol Vuh of the Mayas, or a selection of (Lévy-Strauss') Brazilian myths, etc.

Some lengths in MB here:

Quote:

argumentation.22 Thus, the next sentence or group of sentences are largely predictable. This also serves as a mnemo-technical device that allows for remembering, teaching and learning by heart of long prose passages more easily. -- Interestingly, the early Buddhist texts (whether in Pali or other languages) largely with this agree in structure. This is a feature that should be studied in cooperation with scholars of, among others, Tibetan and Chinese Buddhist texts. A good synoptic edition of its many versions (Gandhari, Tokharian, etc.), of the older canon would be highly appreciated. Needless to say, the huge amount of Vedic texts (some 50 MB?) and of the Buddhist texts (80 MB in Pali) provide perfect material to study oral composition in general. In addition, the 15 MB of the Mahabharata and Ramayana provide insight into Bardic verse composition. They have, single-handedly, been entered into the computer by M. Tokunaga. (In the US we only talked about it, actually held a conference in Texas in 1988 -- but without tangible results...)

400,000 Iliad-length verses and 2 million own lines indicates that 5 Geser lines fit in an average Iliad verse (hmmm, the verse I quoted was exactly 5 lines; perhaps the comparison is really in unnormalized verses?).

Duke Leto · 02-08-2005, 12:22 PM

Ya know I thought this was a derogatory reference to Gyanendra's newly established autocracy.

(King Geezer)

premjan · 02-08-2005, 10:15 PM

Extract from another epic

Quote:

"...'Well,' you say, 'be our khan with your son!'
That would not do for anyone!
If you have true respect for me,
Let Manas your real Khan be!"
So said bey Jakib, and wept.
Down his face the tear-drops swept.
Knowing still their scorn for tears,
Bey Jakib the tossing fears.
Weeping from weakness and from age,
How he longs to leave the stage!
Now Kirghiz and Kazakhs, they too,
Now Kalmaks and Manguls, a few,
On the blanket of soft white felt
Sat Jakib, where the others knelt.
Bogatir Manas, his son,
Set beside him: when that was done,
Then they gripped the blanket fast,
Tossed them up in the air at last!
When they had taken seven steps,
"Enough my lads!" cried Jakib and wept,
So Jakib stepped down on the ground,
Then in the blanket alone was found
Lion Manas, who nothing feared. 16

http://www.iles.umn.edu/faculty/bash...nas/manas.html

02-07-2005, 03:33 PM	#1
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	King Geser of Tibet Does anyone know much about this epic poem? it is said to have about 2 million lines making it much longer than any other old epic poem (not sure how Vikram Seth or Alexander Pushkin stack up..). Is it considered classical poetry? What is the general theme? Is it still heard and known among Tibetans? What is its relation to Tibetan Vajrayana? How many "verses" is it? How much longer is it than say, the Iliad or Mahabharata? Around when was it composed and by whom? When was it first written down?

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02-08-2005, 08:18 AM	#2
Yeshi Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Munich Posts: 1,806	its Gesar of Ling. quick googling helps... Khandro Net source seems 25x the size of Illiad, also orally transmitted...

02-08-2005, 08:51 AM	#3
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	One of my professors in College was working on translating it to english...this was seven years ago, I wonder how he's doing.

02-08-2005, 12:22 PM	#5
Duke Leto Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 3,387	Ya know I thought this was a derogatory reference to Gyanendra's newly established autocracy. (King Geezer)

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