Freethought & Rationalism Archive

TomT · 11-16-2006, 02:55 PM

If you want other evidence to Christ of fulfilled prophecies, what else can you look at? Archaelogy? The testimony of various non-Christian sources of these events? The influence of Christianity today, though not all 2 billion souls alive today are saved, it does say something that hits at the very core of our being.

What other evidence could one possibly muster than the evidence of the testimonies of those who experienced resurrection in their spirit and witnessed these events through these past 6000 years?

If you want some other evidence than this, it is not available in the natural or supernatural laws, so you would be asking for something as evidence that does not exist nor could exist for any truth. You would be living a lie asking for such information.

chapka · 11-16-2006, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomT

The martyrdom for a lie is not the same thing as a martyrdom for a truth.

How?

Quote:

And an eyewitness martyrdom of God in His resurrection is different than a martyrdom of hearing about such martyrdom and yourself being a martyrdom on second hand knowledge.

How?

Neither of these statements make any sense to me. Why on earth would anyone be martyred for anything they thought was a lie? And if people can be martyred for mutually incompatible beliefs, how on earth can you claim that any martyrdom can be evidence for the truth of the martyr's belief?

TomT · 11-16-2006, 02:57 PM

Scholars agree that 1 Cor. 15 is a creed by Paul and things he received from his meetings with Peter and James in the Jerusalem council soon after the death of Jesus. This shows their agreement. They all taught the resurrection.

TomT · 11-16-2006, 02:59 PM

People will be martyred, but whether they died as a martyr for the truth is another question. They believed their lie, but it was not true which can be proven, just as the death of Apostles was not a lie since they really saw Jesus resurrected in their first hand testimony. Second hand testimony is less dependable. In other religions it is always second hand testimony, never first hand testimony.

chapka · 11-16-2006, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomT

If you want other evidence to Christ of fulfilled prophecies, what else can you look at? Archaelogy? The testimony of various non-Christian sources of these events? The influence of Christianity today, though not all 2 billion souls alive today are saved, it does say something that hits at the very core of our being.

What other evidence could one possibly muster than the evidence of the testimonies of those who experienced resurrection in their spirit and witnessed these events through these past 6000 years?

If you want some other evidence than this, it is not available in the natural or supernatural laws, so you would be asking for something as evidence that does not exist nor could exist for any truth. You would be living a lie asking for such information.

Exactly. Christianity has no more evidence in its favor than any other human religion, and cannot be proven or disproven, any more than any other religion. The only thing we can use to evaluate it are the testimonies of its believers, and the main evidence there seems to be that people belong to the same religion as their parents. So trying to put forth one as the only possible true religion is "living a lie".

TomT · 11-16-2006, 03:00 PM

Naturally people are not going to agree because they are unsaved or they may be fleshly, so you will see there will be consequences to disagreement for holding onto untruths or altering God's Word, which is a horrible sin as pointed out Rev. 22.18,19. We can know one thing for sure that the agreement and the harmony of those most spiritual Christians is a solid, and so we have the 66 books of the Bible preserved.

TomT · 11-16-2006, 03:01 PM

Christianity has more evidence. It has 42 writers in the first 150 years after Christ's death. There is no religion in a time and period with this kind of evidence and subsantial first hand testimony.

TomT · 11-16-2006, 03:03 PM

There is no religion that has the authority and harmony of so many writers (40 writers) over such a long period of time (1500 years).

Toto · 11-16-2006, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomT

So let's summarize simply in a minimal facts approach of the resurrection and deity of Christ:

1) Apostles believed and knew they saw Jesus physically resurrected.
2) Paul, an outsider skeptic, saw Jesus resurrected.
3) James, a family skeptic, saw Jesus resurrected.
4) They all died for this testimony of the resurrection.
5) They met with each other and agreed they saw Jesus resurrected.
6) The tomb was empty, the Jews agreed, Rome agrees.
7) Jesus said He is God, He prophesied His resurrection.
8) The law and the prophets prophesied Jesus coming as God.
9) The miracles performed by Jesus were in keeping with His love.
10) The teachings of Christ are the greatest teachings in human history.
11) Jesus never sinned; only man that never sinned; He was the most selfless man that ever lived.
12) We are all sinners, we all need to be saved from that sin which leads to death and the second death. The only way God can forgive is if you accept His perfect forgiveness in the sacrifice of the perfect sinless savior to be the salvation for your sins. Anything less than this perfection would be a false salvation.

That is that.

These are not "minimal facts" and repeating them does not make them so.

If you are not going to respond to the particular objections to these points, you are not here to discuss things and you are misusing us.

chapka · 11-16-2006, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomT

So let's summarize simply in a minimal facts approach of the resurrection and deity of Christ:

1) Apostles believed and knew they saw Jesus physically resurrected.

Apostles and skeptics believed and knew they saw the Golden Plates that Joseph Smith received from the Angel Moroni.

Quote:

2) Paul, an outsider skeptic, saw Jesus resurrected.
3) James, a family skeptic, saw Jesus resurrected.

Brigham Young, a Methodist, joined the Mormons and received direct messages from God.

Quote:

4) They all died for this testimony of the resurrection.

Many Mormons died as well.

Quote:

5) They met with each other and agreed they saw Jesus resurrected.

The Witnesses agreed that they saw the Golden Plates.

Quote:

6) The tomb was empty, the Jews agreed, Rome agrees.

The Book of Mormon was actually published; everyone agrees on that.

Quote:

7) Jesus said He is God, He prophesied His resurrection.

Joseph Smith also reported himself to have made prophecies which were later fulfilled.

Quote:

8) The law and the prophets prophesied Jesus coming as God.

The Book of Mormon prophesied the finding of the Book of Mormon.

Quote:

9) The miracles performed by Jesus were in keeping with His love.

Joseph Smith led his followers to the Promised Land.

Quote:

10) The teachings of Christ are the greatest teachings in human history.

Lots of Mormons think the Book of Mormon is just as fabulous. At least it doesn't say, "Slaves, be obedient to your masters."

I assume you're a Mormon? If not, why not?

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11-16-2006, 02:55 PM	#41
TomT Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Montana Posts: 74	If you want other evidence to Christ of fulfilled prophecies, what else can you look at? Archaelogy? The testimony of various non-Christian sources of these events? The influence of Christianity today, though not all 2 billion souls alive today are saved, it does say something that hits at the very core of our being. What other evidence could one possibly muster than the evidence of the testimonies of those who experienced resurrection in their spirit and witnessed these events through these past 6000 years? If you want some other evidence than this, it is not available in the natural or supernatural laws, so you would be asking for something as evidence that does not exist nor could exist for any truth. You would be living a lie asking for such information.

11-16-2006, 02:57 PM	#43
TomT Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Montana Posts: 74	Scholars agree that 1 Cor. 15 is a creed by Paul and things he received from his meetings with Peter and James in the Jerusalem council soon after the death of Jesus. This shows their agreement. They all taught the resurrection.

11-16-2006, 02:59 PM	#44
TomT Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Montana Posts: 74	People will be martyred, but whether they died as a martyr for the truth is another question. They believed their lie, but it was not true which can be proven, just as the death of Apostles was not a lie since they really saw Jesus resurrected in their first hand testimony. Second hand testimony is less dependable. In other religions it is always second hand testimony, never first hand testimony.

11-16-2006, 03:00 PM	#46
TomT Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Montana Posts: 74	Naturally people are not going to agree because they are unsaved or they may be fleshly, so you will see there will be consequences to disagreement for holding onto untruths or altering God's Word, which is a horrible sin as pointed out Rev. 22.18,19. We can know one thing for sure that the agreement and the harmony of those most spiritual Christians is a solid, and so we have the 66 books of the Bible preserved.

11-16-2006, 03:01 PM	#47
TomT Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Montana Posts: 74	Christianity has more evidence. It has 42 writers in the first 150 years after Christ's death. There is no religion in a time and period with this kind of evidence and subsantial first hand testimony.

11-16-2006, 03:03 PM	#48
TomT Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Montana Posts: 74	There is no religion that has the authority and harmony of so many writers (40 writers) over such a long period of time (1500 years).

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