Ben C Smith

Yes, I just formatted History of the Church 2.25.1-8 for my own purposes, and the quote from Tertullian is pretty garbled.

Ben.

countjulian

Well, you obviously ignored the second part of the locus I posted

Not only that, but your statement reveals a fundamental ignorance about Stoicism. The Stoics did not consider pain a "good thing"; this was reserved only for virtues and vices. It was a "dispreffered indifferent" something not really bad but which was not to be avoided if fate had so ordained it. No Stoic ever took up the Christian past-time of self-flaggellation.

You really should read up on Stoicism and Cynicism if you want to continue the debate

http://www.iep.utm.edu/c/cynics.htm
http://www.iep.utm.edu/s/stoicmind.htm
http://www.iep.utm.edu/s/StoicEth.htm
http://www.iep.utm.edu/d/diogsino.htm
http://www.iep.utm.edu/e/epictetu.htm
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/stoicism/
http://www.geocities.com/westhollywo...617/stoic.html
http://www.wku.edu/~jan.garrett/stoa/


So? Christian teachings about wealth, the afterlife, heaven, hell, the apocolypse blah blah blah had been taught by the Egyptians, Plato, Buddhists, etc. who had contact with the Romans. Jesus could have been an Egyptian Buddha travelling around discoursing with Plato.

No, again you show no grasp of Cynicism. Cynicism was, along with Epicureanism, the most widespread philosophical movemnet in antiquity; Lucian complained that the poor Cynics in their dirty rags infested the cities of the East like "rodents" constantly haraunging passers by to give up their titles, government offices, families, military posts, and material things, and join them in the street farting loudly and eating in public (a big taboo), constantly making displays of themseleves. Many followed the example of Diogenes and masturbated in public. Cynicism, was, in many ways, no more than aspiration to the lifestyle of Diogenes.

The Cynics most certainly did, and I don't think you could get lower class than a slave like Epictetus.

Roman rule under Emperors like Nero was certainly based off of wealth, extravagent wealth.

Jesus believed in frugality, piety, blah blah blah easily enough put to use in Roman propoganda, the Emperor a pious servant of Christ helping his people, protecting the way of the Lord, blah blah blah.

But the only Stoics or Cynics who were ever persecuted were those who actually were inspired by those principles to oppose Rome. Merely being a Stoic or Cynic wasn't enough, you had to oppose Roman rule in some way.

spin

ie that Syria had basic control over the lesser provinces in the zone?? What do you need, a written document to prove it? Is it necessary to go beyond the fact that Syria was proconsular and frequently intervened in affairs of neighbouring provinces, such as when there was strife in Judea under Ventidius Cumanus? Ummidius Quadratus even took the issue before the courts.

You're still ducking and weaving.

It was based on an earlier question of mine which you refused to give a reasoned response to.

You deal with it somewhat below.

What is inconsistent about Tacitus's statement? While H.Agrippa was alive all issues regarding Judea were in his hands. When he died, this was no longer the case.

I've pointed out several inconsistencies with regard to the supposed Neronian persecution.

It happened immediately after H.Agrippa's death. What would you have liked Syria to have done?


spin

spin

Perhaps "conflated" would have been a better word. Nero basically gets accused of madness, the sorts of excess that Caligula was reported to have exercised.

Then of course, Eusebius uncritically (as everyone after that has done) accepted the anti-Julio-Claudian propaganda.


spin

spin

When you make the -- at that time -- artificial separation between christians and Jews then I can understand why it wouldn't be clear. Remember though that many Jews were messianic at the time. Even when dealing with Shimeon bar Kochba, Aqiba noted him as the messiah. Matt talks about Pharisaic competition for converts. Pharisaic messianists also wanted non-Jews to adhere to Jewish ways. The distinction between christian and Jew was blurred for a long time, whereas we should be looking at christians as a sect of Judaism early on.


spin

spin

He's all ready to believe in this persecution, but has not one fact. Typical of this persecution complex of early christianity.

So you think it's a Tacitean phrase, eh? It sounds much more like one of a persecution brigade camping it up.

Because the reference to christians doesn't fit the context, either for relevence or for sentence. It basically says that christians were executed (and not as the text is translated).

Do you think anything was left out for some ulterior motive or is this just an effort at compendiousness on your part?

What is the problem with christians in Suetonius then, Ben C.???


spin

Ben C Smith

My point was that placing limitations on expenditures (number 1 on the list) does not seem to fit well with your perceived category of civil disorder legislation, though it does fit well with the announced category of new laws. No compendiousness was intended.

Intervene (even if after the fact). Catch the culprits instead of leaving them for Fadus to round up later. Prosecute them for civil disruption.

If Fadus got to Judea before Syria had time to react to a disturbance that began immediately after the death of Agrippa, then Judea did not have time to be under Syrian control.

Or so it seems to me.

I have tried to be as forthright as possible. I have tried to support my every contention with primary evidence. I am sorry to have conveyed the impression (repeatedly and persistently, to judge from your comments) that I am trying to duck and weave, or to avoid implications, or to be compendious, or to ignore what is as obvious as the nose on my face, or to turn simple matters into rocket science, or to fail to deal with the evidence, or not to admit I need someone to hold my hand, or to ignore what is uncomfortable for my desires or what I dislike about Tacitus, or what have you.

I think this discussion has run its course. Thanks for the exchange. You may have the last word. I recommend you scan the above list of personal slurs so as not to repeat one you have already used.

Ben.

andrewcriddle

I'm sorry I didn't make my point clear.

I'm arguing that Titus had at least as bad a reputation among messianic Jews as Nero and was at least as likely to acquire a fictitious reputation as a persecutor of Christians.

We do FWIW get an example of Titus being regarded as anti-Christian in Sulpicius Severus I'm not sure what to make of this but if an invention by Sulpicius it would be much later than the tradition of Nero's hostility to Christianity.

Andrew Criddle

countjulian

bump

spin

And my point was the section of the list in which the christian reference is found is one of control of civil order. The execution of christians doesn't quite fit in to the category -- I'm sure you'll agree. Also the notion of christians being a recognisable group distinct from Jews is bordering on farcical. The only reason I can think of why one would not suspect the veracity of the reference is through prior commitment.

We are dealing with a legal situation. Judea returned unter the aegis of Syria. In fact it stayed there, albeit as a province under its control.


I don't usually need to repeat my comments. I can usually find one I haven't used lately or invent a new one.

It's interesting that you take offense at most of these. What would you do in real life -- rather than here on internet?

I have asked you consistently to deal with what we are shown about the relationship between Judea and Syria. For some reason... you want to have what seems to be laid out for all to see, laid out for you to see.

Syria, being the dominant presence of Rome in the east had control over other provinces. It had that control before H.Agrippa and it had it after his death. Tacitus shows us several occasions before hand and at least one afterwards, so why you doubt Tacitus when he says that Judea and Itruria were Suriae additi on the death of their kings, I can't fathom. Syria plainly had control over Judea.


spin