Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chili · 11-26-2012, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Yes.It makes no difference whether or not god exists.

Right, these are social issues that Moses used as bait to snare 'original sin' that made man a social animal, and so redemption really amounts to making human 'non' social again (and so neither social nor asocial as man).

Yes. Moses, Mohamed etc have nothing to do with god and it is for this reason that it makes no difference whether or not god exists

Well, at least give Moses some credit for the partial transformation he had that at least turned his hair white but not his robe, and is why we still use him today.

Iskander · 11-26-2012, 09:27 AM

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Originally Posted by Chili

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Yes. Moses, Mohamed etc have nothing to do with god and it is for this reason that it makes no difference whether or not god exists

Well, at least give Moses some credit for the partial transformation he had that at least turned his hair white but not his robe, and is why we still use him today.

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Originally Posted by Chili

The concept evil exist only in the human condition wherein only good and evil are known to be.

Yes, yes, and again, yes. Congratulations

Adam · 11-26-2012, 12:39 PM

I would have preferred to discuss this over on my original thread, Truth Methodology,
but you prefer a briefer format anyway.

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Originally Posted by TedM

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Originally Posted by Adam

c. If the existence of God necessarily follows from Evolution, it probably follows that if this is the way God originated, other beings exist who came into existence apart from (presumably prior to) God becoming God. Let us call these “uncreated beings”. God is not to blame for them, but only for what He created. What the uncreated beings do with each other is not God’s fault, if the uncreated beings live according to their own systems they agree with. This solves the Problem of Evil as pertains to any beings from the Preexistent condition. If humans are among these beings, then the Problem of Evil is of no consequence, provided that we at some time agreed to continue with our states of beings.
d. Since the Problem of Evil is of real concern, it follows that we are among these uncreated beings. That we have existed so long implies that we have existed in-between and that Reincarnation of some type has been part of that long time.
e. It is possible that God found it best over billions of years to transform or do away with bad conditions among the uncreated beings. Carried to completion this would arrive at an state that all would find satisfactory. Satisfactory except for being boring and ultimately meaningless unless arbitrary problems and consequences were set up to make it seem that there was meaning. God would of course have foreseen this, so it’s not surprising that problems, even evils, exist in the world we know. Even in God’s own created Universe one would expect to see things that appear to be evil. Therefore we cannot know whether we live in God’s created Universe or in the realm where uncreated beings still are tolerated.
f. Yet our vantage point from Earth seems to reveal a world containing such extreme evil that it seems more likely that we dwell in the realm of the uncreated, or at least in a mixed state in which at least the Evil that we see stems from the uncreated.

If I follow, you are saying that evil could have pre-existed God through the 'uncreated', that God was a product of evolution, and that God may have decided to 'do away' with the 'bad conditions' that exist among the uncreated through his own brand of evolution over billions of years. Also, that humans may be an expression of the uncreated, perhaps through reincarnation. Is that what you are saying?

If so,

1. God was an accident through evolution brought about by the uncreated?
2. Where does God come in with evolution? Is he restricted to creating us only through evolution? God is all-knowing but not all powerful? Is God unable to communicate with us effectively to let us know what is going on?

In the preceding "b" I developed the idea that whether or not God existed originally, He would have come about through extrapolation of what Evolution has already been seen to do. Whether God was necessary in the first place I leave open, but God exists now whether He always has or got organized later. Your last two questions don't seem applicable to my Christian theist presentation.

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3. Where is the will of the uncreated in this scenario? Why would they 'agree' with the 'bad conditions' that arise from God's creation? Conversely why would they allow God to try and change them if evil is something they 'agreed to'?

IF you don't mind please try to be concise in your answers. I don't have much time. Thanks.

The "uncreated" may have always "been" just as God has or may have come about during Evolution. Even if we assume that God exists everywhere now, we do not know that He was always everywhere. The "uncreated" may have been absorbed into God's expanding universe. The "uncreated" may never have had the potential to become God, so their "will" could be irrelevant to what was to happen to them. Presumably it was something like "agree to my terms or be destroyed", and God's terms include that they must be subject to evils (of their own making, presumably) that would be intended to reform them to a better state of being. Nevertheless it may be of the nature of the "uncreated" that some elements would resist eternally.

TedM · 11-26-2012, 02:38 PM

Ok, thanks Adam.

aa5874 · 11-26-2012, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

The "uncreated" may have always "been" just as God has or may have come about during Evolution. Even if we assume that God exists everywhere now, we do not know that He was always everywhere. The "uncreated" may have been absorbed into God's expanding universe. The "uncreated" may never have had the potential to become God, so their "will" could be irrelevant to what was to happen to them. Presumably it was something like "agree to my terms or be destroyed", and God's terms include that they must be subject to evils (of their own making, presumably) that would be intended to reform them to a better state of being. Nevertheless it may be of the nature of the "uncreated" that some elements would resist eternally.

In other words you don't know what you are talking about. You ought to know that your God may have murdered the real Creator God like Cain murdered Abel.

Evil may exist because an Evil God Killed the Good One.

How many times must you be told that Gods are Myths??

There is ZERO evidence that your God did anything or can do any thing.

Where did your God learn to Create things??

In Mythology classes!!!

Sheshbazzar · 11-26-2012, 03:17 PM

When the Bible isn't enough, one only needs to make up some 'may have been' shit.

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11-26-2012, 02:38 PM	#284
TedM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: USA, Missouri Posts: 3,070	Ok, thanks Adam.

11-26-2012, 03:17 PM	#286
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	When the Bible isn't enough, one only needs to make up some 'may have been' shit.

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