Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 01-10-2012, 10:10 PM

I'm still trying to envision what the hell this five pointed cross looked like. I think la-reid is on to something. So glad he is part of my forum.

Chili · 01-10-2012, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

How would a sign be hung on a person crucified on a 5 pointed star? The same?

Yes, except that one of them goes up your ass, on which our 'finger' sign is based except that here you got fucked for life..

la70119 · 01-10-2012, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I'm still trying to envision what the hell this five pointed cross looked like. I think la-reid is on to something. So glad he is part of my forum.

Actually it's la-70119.

Thanks!

Here are links to two large imagescans (which are too big to imagepost here) from the book, The Turin Shroud: Past, Present and Future. In each imagescan are watermarks of an image of the Vivat Crux Graffito and some explanatory text. But you have to download each one and view it offline, to see the watermarks: they don't reproduce in an online view. :frown:

Alexamenos Graffito (portraying an obviously fictitious crucifixion): Link

Pozzuoli Graffito (portraying a crucifixion that actually happened): Link

The explanatory text that is watermarked, as best as i can reproduce:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Turin Shroud

subligaculum), which was the Roman and Jewish praxis – but
he was clothed from his from his head to his knees within an animal
skin³³, perhaps to attract the animals freed in the circus and
thus end up torn to pieces as described in the mime of the
”Laureolus”.³⁴

This type of cross with a seat is depicted in a graffito at
Pompeii.³⁵ In shape it is like that of the crux immissa or ”Latin”
cross which recalls a ship’s mast. (Fig. 7) Here again on the
stipes there is a sign that looks like the sedile ”seat” and
which would also justify the writing VIV superimposed on the
cross and which might be interpreted as a rebus VIV[AS IN
CRUCE] (”That you may live a long time on a cross”) on
the lines of ”IN CROCE FIGARUS” (May you be nailed to the
cross) found in the same city.

Ossuary of Giv’at ha-Mivtar

There has been much debate over the years on the crucifix-
ion victim found in Jerusalem in an ossuary in the cemetery
of Giv’at ha-Mivtar. This was not only due to the exceptional
nature of the find ”unique of the kind because a nail was still

____________

³³ Also Tacitus writes of condemned men dressed in animal skins
(Annales, 15, 44: 2, 13, 1) ”Ferarum tergis contecti,” ”Contectus
umeros ferina pelle”
³⁴ On the mime of Laureolus since Caligula’s times, see my study
La Crocifissione negli spettacoli latini, Coll. Pro Sindone, Roma 1987
IV, 11-22; V, 18-26; VI, 15-22.
³⁵ M Della Corte (”Notizie Scavi”, 1958 p. 113) found it in July
1958 in a house on insula 13 (Regio I) and he interpreted it as
”VIV(at crux) V(ivat)”, taking for a V the sign of the stipes. The graf-
fito may be seen in the Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarium (CIL IV

A realistic reproduction of the Vivat Crux (which I carved from the Pozzuoli imagescan). It obviously has five points: top and bottom of the post, left and right ends of the crossarm, and endpoint of the thorn-like stake.

And a photo of the actual Pozzuoli. It too has five points: bottom of post, top of a narrower section of the post (or a separate titulus post), left end and right end of the crossarm, and the end of a pointed beam, with a barely visible "peg" that is being sat upon or "ridden."

la70119 · 01-10-2012, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

How would a sign be hung on a person crucified on a 5 pointed star? The same?

Yes, except that one of them goes up your ass, on which our 'finger' sign is based except that here you got fucked for life..

Ouch! You got that right. Same as with a five-pointed cross.

stephan huller · 01-10-2012, 11:34 PM

So what happens here? They spear the guy and then make these branches? I think it would look more like an x attached to a pole.

Another thing. I don't know where it is but somewhere in Jastrow's Aramaic dictionary there is a word which means crucifixion which is derived from the mast of a ship. I don't know whether this fits

la70119 · 01-11-2012, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

This is actually quite brilliant. Just looking at my phone and letting the information sink in. Clement also identifies Christians as (homosexual) “lovers of the unicorn.” This may start to make more sense as an allegorical reference

Actually it is quite obvious that when Justin Martyr, Tertullian et al talk about the Minotaur / Bull (Taurus) and the Rhinoceros / Unicorn they are talking of none other than the Cross. Which means lovers of the Unicorn = lovers of the Cross. So I agree in that it probably is allegorical. But it didn't stop the outsiders from accusing Christians of adoring and worshipping the virilia of their clergy: see Minucius Felix, Octavius 9.

Quote:

Against Marcion 3 and Against the Jews derive from the same original work probably written by Justin

They seem to be saying the exact same thing. What took Justin Martyr something like twenty chapters to expound to Trypho (while not letting the poor man get a word in edgewise), Tertullian says in one. If nothing else, he was good at boiling things down.

Quote:

I have to admit I am difficulty envisioning WTF we are talking about here. Does the middle bar “spear” the victom while the other four “spread” his body? The gospel of Philip connects the cross with “spreading out”

Yes, that does appear to be the function of this instrument. Yehohanan, the one found with a nail in his left heel, was said to have been "hanged with knees apart." (Y. Yadin, 1973 'Epigraphy and crucifixion'. IEJ 23: 18-22.) The Romans knew how to nail the heels to the post for maximum cruelty and shame.

Quote:

Here is the Gospel of Philip reference:

The eucharist is Jesus. For he is called in Syriac "Pharisatha," which is "the one who is spread out," for Jesus came to crucify the world.

Apparently the pun here is that in Syriac pharisatha is also used for “broken bread” (so Andrew Philip Smith)

How would a sign be hung on a person crucified on a 5 pointed star? The same?

If it's an actual star, by a chain slung over the top? On a signpost nailed to the back?

On a cross, it would be nailed to the back of the post or into the top of the crossarm by its signpost / handle.

Quote:

Some of the associated meanings in Jewish Aramaic of this root:

to split, break, spread, divide etc
to spread a cloak over the head for the recitation of the prayers preceding the Sh'ma
to distribute, publish
to break bread, a piece, a certain quantity of bread
the fare received by members of the household or by slaves
P'ras = half the length of a furrow
crushed bones
Persia

Hif = to assign, give a share
Pi = to spread

Some interesting related words

Parasha = a cross-road v. parushta or parasha “crossing”
=interpretation

Pharisee (who happened to have been crucified in great numbers). Tradition says the name Pharisee was applied by the Sadducees to their enemies before being embraced by the sect

I always thought the Pharisees came from the Hebrew Perushim. Although this looks like a better hypothesis, considering Alexander Jannaeus crucified (or impaled) 800 of them, earning the moniker "Thracian" (Josephus, Jewish War 1.4.6.96-8, Antiquities 13.14.2.379-83). Being crucified would imply they were at least spread and stretched apart, or impaled, split apart.

Quote:

Another parallel is the “breaking” or “splitting” of the curtain of the Temple.

Curtain = p'ras

Yes, and the curtain was spread out like a sail to separate the most holy place (Holy of Holies) from the rest of the Temple.

Quote:

BTW only Carribean port not in the Tropics = Nassau

Didn't global warming push the tropics up to Tampa and Melbourne FL? The Carribean port I'm talking about is in Louisiana. :devil1:

la70119 · 01-11-2012, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

So what happens here? They spear the guy and then make these branches? I think it would look more like an x attached to a pole.

In which case it would mimic the Star of Julius Caesar or at least the ChiRho sign that was actually used in the 1st Cent CE on amphorae jars to indicate the contents within were good for use or consumption.

But on a regular cross, they nail him (maybe tie him, too) to the crossarm first and lift him up. Then they nail him to the post and spear him, not necessarily in that order.

Quote:

Another thing. I don't know where it is but somewhere in Jastrow's Aramaic dictionary there is a word which means crucifixion which is derived from the mast of a ship. I don't know whether this fits

It fits. The Vivat Crux after all appears to depict a mast-type 5-pointed cross. Plus, 2nd Cent CE Greek writings compare the cross to a mast.

stephan huller · 01-11-2012, 12:15 AM

I think the five pointed cross looked like this:

and thanks to this discussion I finally found the reference to the origin of the nomen sacrum I was looking for in my discussion with Makelan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_Rho#cite_note-1

Quote:

The Chi Rho is one of the earliest forms of christogram, and is used by Christians. It is formed by superimposing the first two (capital) letters chi and rho (ΧΡ) of the Greek word "ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ" =Christ in such a way to produce the monogram. Although not technically a Christian cross, the Chi-Rho invokes the crucifixion of Jesus, as well as symbolizing his status as the Christ.

The Chi-Rho symbol was also used by pagan Greek scribes to mark, in the margin, a particularly valuable or relevant passage; the combined letters Chi and Rho standing for chrēston, meaning "good."[2] Some coins of Ptolemy III Euergetes (r. 246–222 BC) were marked with a Chi-Rho

[2] Southern 2001, p. 281; Grant 1998, p. 142.

I think that thanks to you my friend la reid, we have solved not only the origin of the nomen sacrum but the symbolism of the cross. Jesus was understood to have been crucified on the letters which confirmed that his sacrifice was 'right' (= chrestos).

Also, is the Valentinian figure of 'stauros' really a disguise for Chrestos (whose name is symbolized in the cross?).

This has to be the original understanding of what the cross looked like. Now the question comes - why did the Nicene Church replace this understanding? The answer (my first guess) is that it was mythical. In other words, it was an unrealistic cross. No one was crucified this way.

stephan huller · 01-11-2012, 12:37 AM

From 350 CE:

stephan huller · 01-11-2012, 12:38 AM

Before the familiar Cross was the symbol of Christianity Constantine took over the chi-rho (as a symbol of the cross?):

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01-10-2012, 10:10 PM	#51
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I'm still trying to envision what the hell this five pointed cross looked like. I think la-reid is on to something. So glad he is part of my forum.

01-10-2012, 11:34 PM	#55
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	So what happens here? They spear the guy and then make these branches? I think it would look more like an x attached to a pole. Another thing. I don't know where it is but somewhere in Jastrow's Aramaic dictionary there is a word which means crucifixion which is derived from the mast of a ship. I don't know whether this fits

01-11-2012, 12:37 AM	#59
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	From 350 CE:

01-11-2012, 12:38 AM	#60
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Before the familiar Cross was the symbol of Christianity Constantine took over the chi-rho (as a symbol of the cross?):

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