Freethought & Rationalism Archive

DoubtingDave · 02-17-2012, 09:10 AM

Forgive me if you have already discussed this, but see this resposne here http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a38.htm I am not sure what to make of it.

aa5874 · 02-17-2012, 09:17 AM

It is has been brought to my attention that "Against Heresies" 2.22 has UTTERLY Exposed the TF as a Most Blatant forgery.

The VERDICT has now been reached.

The History of the Church is the product of a Crime Against Humanity.

In "Against Heresies" 2.22 it is claimed that Jesus was crucified when he was about to be 50 years old.

Such a claim SIGNIFIES that the TF [Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3] is forgery.

In Antiquities of the Jews 18 . it is shown that Pilate was governor of Judea during the reign of Tiberius.

A crime AGAINST Humanity has been Exposed and was KNOWN by the Roman Church.

The author of "Against Heresies" 2.22, a supposed Presbyter of the Church, is EVIDENCE that the TF was deliberately INSERTED and the History of the Church was CRIMINALLY Manipulated.

It is virtually impossible that the author of Against Heresies 2.22 could have claimed Jesus was crucified under Claudius if the TF was already Publicly known and circulated in the Roman Empire.

Duvduv · 02-17-2012, 09:21 AM

It is totally implausible that Justin Martyr knew nothing about the canonical texts (although he about some record of Pilate hidden away in a dusty Rome archive and mentioned one John and Simon) in the year 150, and barely 30 years later a virtually unknown writer (who is heralded as some great figure of importance) named Irenaeus came along and knew everything about the canonical texts.

The book Against Heresies is NOT from the second century right after the mish-mash writings of Justin, and probably also not from the third century either. I cannot argue with anyone claiming the biased church party hacks were writing from the fourth and fifth centuries, and were backdated. For that matter who even knows if there was a Eusebius or whether his History is just a compendium written by other assorted church figures with an agenda in the time of Theodosius or thereafter? These texts are all full of holes like swiss cheese......

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Don't be such a gullible simp.
With the 2nd and 3rd century church 'cooking the books' they could make Irenaeus (or any other church Father) 'write' whatever they wished.

We pretty much ended up with Eusebeus's and Co's 'version' of everything.
What any genuine, original, authentic, and unmolested writings may have actually contained is what remains to be determined.

aa5874 · 02-17-2012, 09:34 AM

The author of "Against Heresies" 2.22 claimed Jesus was crucified under CLAUDIUS in another writing, and such a claim would be totally RIDICULOUS and FALSE once the TF was already publicly known and circulated within the Roman Empire.

Irenaeus was supposedly a Presbyter and Bishop of the Church and was in Rome at some time.

Examine the Evidence that has confirmed a Crime Against Humanity was committed and KNOWN by the Roman Church.

Demonstration of Apostolic Preaching attributed to Irenaeus.

Quote:

....For Herod the king of the Jews and Pontius Pilate, the governor of Claudius Caesar, came together and condemned Him to be crucified...

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/irenaeus_02_proof.htm

Duvduv · 02-17-2012, 09:42 AM

How interesting that the man who spoke of the four gospels should have confused the name of the Caesar and be off by 10 years. Didn't he ever see Luke?? Didn't this writer know that Luke also said that Jesus was around 30 years old when he ministered? Where does Ireneaeus want to prove that Jesus was allegedly around ministering for 20 years?
Are there various manuscripts of this book that have the correct name if scribal errors can account for such errors:

"In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be enrolled. This was the first enrollment, when Quirinius was governor of Syria. And all went to be enrolled, each to his own city. And Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David [see also The Chosen People and Ruth], to be enrolled with Mary, his betrothed, who was with child. And while they were there, the time came for her to be delivered. And she gave birth to her first-born son and wrapped Him in swaddling cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn." (Luke 2:1-7 RSV)

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The author of "Against Heresies" 2.22 claimed Jesus was crucified under CLAUDIUS in another writing, and such a claim would be totally RIDICULOUS and FALSE once the TF was already publicly known and circulated within the Roman Empire.

Irenaeus was supposedly a Presbyter and Bishop of the Church and was in Rome at some time.

Examine the Evidence that has confirmed a Crime Against Humanity was committed and KNOWN by the Roman Church.

Demonstration of Apostolic Preaching attributed to Irenaeus.

Quote:

....For Herod the king of the Jews and Pontius Pilate, the governor of Claudius Caesar, came together and condemned Him to be crucified...

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/irenaeus_02_proof.htm

aa5874 · 02-17-2012, 11:59 AM

Again, the author of Against Heresies 2.22 could NOT have known of the TF and still claim that Jesus was crucified under Pilate.

And the very same thing would be true for those against whom he argued.

The very so-called Heretics could NOT have known of the TF or else they would have INSTANTLY recognized that the author of Against Heresies was a LIAR.

The game is over.

We are dealing with a Crime Against Humanity where the whole Roman Empire were FORCED to believe a LIE, the History of the Church.

Such a crime should NOT ever be allowed to happen again.

la70119 · 02-17-2012, 05:11 PM

Irenaeus AH 2.22 may have been a source for the statements about Christus / Chrestus in Tacitus and Suetonius.

Tacitus Annales 15:44

Quote:

But neither human help, nor imperial munificence, nor all the modes of placating Heaven, could stifle scandal or dispel the belief that the fire had taken place by order. Therefore, to scotch the rumour, Nero substituted as culprits, and punished with the utmost refinements of cruelty, a class of men, loathed for their outrages, whom the crowd styled Christians*. Christus, the founder of the name, had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilatus, and the pernicious superstition was checked for a moment, only to break out once more, not merely in Judaea, the home of the disease, but in the capital itself, where all things hideous and shameful in the world find their centre and become popular.

*Originally "Chrestians."

Originally the word "Christians" was written "Chrestians," and photographic analysis has shown this to be so. This, of course, helps explain why Christians INSIST that "Chrestus" in Suetonius is actually "Christus," i.e., Jesus Christ.

Observe, also, that tacitus mislabels Pontius Pilatus as a procurator, for in fact, Pilate was a prefect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_governor#Imperial_governors, Equestrian Procurator

Quote:

The Emperor also had under his control a number of smaller, but potentially difficult provinces that did not need an entire legion. These provinces were put under the control of governors of equestrian status. New conquests generally fell into this equestrian category but most were later changed in status to reflect the changing conditions of Rome's growing empire. Thus, a province would become upon conquest a procuratorial province until it was decided that it should become either an imperial or senatorial province and thus governed by either a propraetor or proconsul. Like the other imperial provinces, the equestrian governors could serve any length of time up to 5 years, or even longer.

Much like the senatorial province of Africa, the equestrian province of Aegyptus (Egypt) was an exception to the general rule of legions only being stationed in imperial provinces. Egypt was not a normal province like any other; it was considered the personal possession of the Emperor, and its governor, the praefectus aegypti, was considered the hold the highest ranking equestrian post during the early empire. Later, the post would fall second to that of the praetorian command, but its position remained highly prestigious.

Though the practice of appointing equestrians to help manage provinces officially began with Augustus, governors from years before had appointed procurators to help them govern. However, it was not until the reign of Claudius that these procurators received the powers of a governor. Though by definition the procurators were prefects, a procuratorship was a more formal way of denoting a prefect’s authority to govern. It is important to note that procurators were not magistrates, so did not own imperium, and merely exercised the Emperor’s, or governor's, authority with his approval.

Indeed, this is reflected in the writings of Josephus' Antiquities, where he differentiates prefects from procurators by the terms ἡγεμόν᾽ and ἐπίτροπος, respectively. And he calls Pilate an ἡγεμόν᾽, that is, a prefect.

Suetonius Claudius 25:4

Quote:

Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus*, he expelled them from Rome.

* Another form of Christus; see Tert. Apol. 3 (at the end). It is uncertain whether Suetonius is guilty of an error in chronology or is referring to some Jew of that name. The former seems probable because of the absence of quodam. Tac. Ann. 15.44, uses the correct form, Christus, and states that He was executed in the reign of Tiberius

Tacitus' so-called ERROR in Pontius Pilatius' TITLE as governor SHOWS that whoever wrote this statement in Annals 15:44 could very well have written down CLAUDIUS as Emperor and NOT Tiberius. It also means, given what i just said, that someone CHANGED the name of the ACTUAL procurator under Claudius in 49 CE, Ventidius Cumanus (48-52 CE), to Pontius Pilatus.

Suetonius' so-called ERROR in chronology SHOWS Jesus STILL ALIVE AND KICKING at the time Claudius expelled the Jews from Rome in 49 CE.

Irenaeus, in his Demonstration of Apostolic Preaching, said that PONTIUS PILATUS was the governor who sentenced Jesus to death.

Irenaeus, in both his Demonstration of Apostolic Preaching AND Against Heresies 2.22, said that Jesus lived until the time of CLAUDIUS.

Irenaeus EXPOSES the FORGERY, FABRICATION, AND FRAUD in the chronicles of Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius.

aa5874 · 02-17-2012, 05:40 PM

"Against Heresies" 2.22 and the Demonstration of Apostolic Preaching attributed to Irenaeus do show a Crime Against Humanity by the Church.

It would have been virtually IMPOSSIBLE for a Presbyter and Bishop of the Church to have claimed Jesus was crucified under CLAUDIUS when it should have been KNOWN and publicly circulated by Tacitus and Josephus that Jesus was crucified Under TIBERIUS.

Examine Tacitus Annals 15.44

Tacitus Annals 15.44

Quote:

Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus...

The author of "Against Heresies" 2.22 did NOT know of Tacitus Annals and NEITHER did the Heretics against whom Irenaeus argued.

The History of the Church is a Crime Against Humanity.

The people of the Roman Empire were DELIBERATELY DUPED into believing a LIE and subjected to death or persecution if the LIE was not accepted.

la70119 · 02-17-2012, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

"Against Heresies" 2.22 and the Demonstration of Apostolic Preaching attributed to Irenaeus do show a Crime Against Humanity by the Church.

It would have been virtually IMPOSSIBLE for a Presbyter and Bishop of the Church to have claimed Jesus was crucified under CLAUDIUS when it should have been KNOWN and publicly circulated by Tacitus and Josephus that Jesus was crucified Under TIBERIUS.

Examine Tacitus Annals 15.44

Tacitus Annals 15.44

Quote:

Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus...

The author of "Against Heresies" 2.22 did NOT know of Tacitus Annals and NEITHER did the Heretics against whom Irenaeus argued.

And neither could the author of Suetonius' Claudius 25:4 have known of Tacitus' Annals 15:44 as we know it. Otherwise he would NOT have referred to "Chrestus" (Christus) as an instigator who was STILL ALIVE AND KICKING in 49 CE. And there is archaeological evidence that shows that Christus was known as Chrestus in the 1st to 3rd Centuries CE. Disclaimer: it does NOT mean Chrestus was exactly the same as the Jesus Christ of the canonical gospels, "Acts," and the Pauline and other NT writings.

Archaeology of the Chrest

Quote:

The History of the Church is a Crime Against Humanity.

The people of the Roman Empire were DELIBERATELY DUPED into believing a LIE and subjected to death or persecution if the LIE was not accepted.

EXACTLY.

aa5874 · 02-17-2012, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

And neither could the author of Suetonius' Claudius 25:4 have known of Tacitus' Annals 15:44 as we know it. Otherwise he would NOT have referred to "Chrestus" (Christus) as an instigator who was STILL ALIVE AND KICKING in 49 CE. And there is archaeological evidence that shows that Christus was known as Chrestus in the 1st to 3rd Centuries CE. Disclaimer: it does NOT mean Chrestus was exactly the same as the Jesus Christ of the canonical gospels, "Acts," and the Pauline and other NT writings....

FANTASTIC. Congratulations. You appear to have SOLVED the 1800 year old statement by the author of "Against Heresies" 2.22 that Jesus was crucified under Claudius.

The author of "Against Heresies" 2.22 was most likely familiar with Suetonius "Life of Claudius" where the name Chrestus is found.

Life of Claudius

Quote:

.....4 Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome....

And it is true that the Romans did called Christians by the name of ChrEstians based on Tertullian.

Tertullian's Apology

Quote:

But Christian, so far as the meaning of the word is concerned, is derived from anointing.

Yes, and even when it is wrongly pronounced by you “Chrestianus” (for you do not even know accurately the name you hate), it comes from sweetness and benignity.

So, the author of Against Heresies 2.22 appeared to have mistakenly thought or wanted people to believe that Chrestus was Jesus and had NO other non-apologetic source for his Jesus Christ.

The author of Against Heresies 2.22 has EXPOSED that a Crime Against Humanity was committed by the Roman Church.

The author of AH 2.22 did NOT know of the TF [AJ 18.3.3], AJ 20.9.1. Annals 15.44, Paul, the Pauline writings, the Pauline Churches, Acts of the Apostles and gLuke and NEITHER did the Heretics against whom he argued.

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02-17-2012, 09:10 AM	#141
DoubtingDave Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Conowingo, Maryland Posts: 577	Forgive me if you have already discussed this, but see this resposne here http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a38.htm I am not sure what to make of it.

02-17-2012, 09:17 AM	#142
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	It is has been brought to my attention that "Against Heresies" 2.22 has UTTERLY Exposed the TF as a Most Blatant forgery. The VERDICT has now been reached. The History of the Church is the product of a Crime Against Humanity. In "Against Heresies" 2.22 it is claimed that Jesus was crucified when he was about to be 50 years old. Such a claim SIGNIFIES that the TF [Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3] is forgery. In Antiquities of the Jews 18 . it is shown that Pilate was governor of Judea during the reign of Tiberius. A crime AGAINST Humanity has been Exposed and was KNOWN by the Roman Church. The author of "Against Heresies" 2.22, a supposed Presbyter of the Church, is EVIDENCE that the TF was deliberately INSERTED and the History of the Church was CRIMINALLY Manipulated. It is virtually impossible that the author of Against Heresies 2.22 could have claimed Jesus was crucified under Claudius if the TF was already Publicly known and circulated in the Roman Empire.

02-17-2012, 11:59 AM	#146
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	Again, the author of Against Heresies 2.22 could NOT have known of the TF and still claim that Jesus was crucified under Pilate. And the very same thing would be true for those against whom he argued. The very so-called Heretics could NOT have known of the TF or else they would have INSTANTLY recognized that the author of Against Heresies was a LIAR. The game is over. We are dealing with a Crime Against Humanity where the whole Roman Empire were FORCED to believe a LIE, the History of the Church. Such a crime should NOT ever be allowed to happen again.

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