greyline

You have evidence now that Abraham was real?

Vorkosigan

Norma, when a text states that it has a particular goal and is not attempting to develop a robust picture of history, and that the contents of the text are closely related to that goal, don't you think that its credibility suffers?

For example, here is the website of the Indian holy man Sai Baba, which also produces texts from followers of Sai on his behalf. Do you think that this is a credible source on Sai Baba, his life, and his teachings?

Sparrow

Strangely enough, I start with assumptions, as few of them as possible. I use reason to combine these assumptions and observable facts to set my worldview. I don’t know how to set my assumptions upon reason. Perhaps I misunderstand what you’re saying.

Our information is always incomplete. Planes rising into the air don’t violate my common sense. I understand the effects of differential air pressure. I can imagine that someone who has never seen a plane take off might have a different opinion. I’ve heard other claims that do violate my common sense though. Care to guess at any of those? I've never seen anyone ever walk on water.

Can you identify anytime this has ever happened? Of course let’s skip the obvious example I know you’re thinking of. It would need to be very well documented. Extraordinary claims, extraordinary evidence.

There are indeed reasons to investigate. But rather than launch a full investigation, just find the date of publication of any existing document claiming to be written by someone who saw Jesus resurrected. Not just a fragment, a complete testimony.

norma98026

Why yes! The people who descended from him, Jews and Arabs, continue to exist today. If if weren't for the Jewish people, we wouldn't know that he was a real person, for they are the ones (Moses, Joshua, et al) who wrote the Bible and so painstakingly copied and preserved it.

Norma

Diogenes the Cynic

I don't even know where to start with this. Not a single thing you said is factual.

If you don't mind, could you tell us what your evidence is that "Jews and Arabs" are descended from Abraham? Could you show us your evidence that Abtaham existed?

All the evidence we have strongly supports a conclusion that there was no Moses or Joshua. We know this because we know there was no Exodus and no Israelite conquest of Canaan. The archaeology shows that the tribal culture which became identified as "Israelite" was an indigeonous local Canannite population which was never enslaved in Egypt, never wandered across the Sinai, never migrated en masse in from the desert and never conquered much of anything.

Any assertion that the Bible was written by Moses and Joshua is utterly without evidentiary support or really any kind scholarly credibility whatsoever (and FYI, the tradition of Mosaic authorship only applies to the Pentateuch, not the entire Hebrew Bible).

greyline

I asked about proof that Abraham existed, not about your personal beliefs about Abraham and his descendants. Did the Dreamtime exist just because Aboriginal Australians continue to exist today to tell stories about it?

norma98026

Actually, it's far easier to prove the existence of a person rather than to prove his or her nonexistence. The fact that the books of Moses describe Abraham, his activities, and his family is the first indication we can point to that he existed, the second is that the New Testament authors (who lived hundreds of years after he did) recognized Abraham as real person, and the third is that Jews and Arabs today claim to be descended from him. In fact Judaism, Islam, and Christianity -- the 3 main faiths of the world today -- all assert his existence. What is your evidence that Abraham did not exist? I think the burden of proof is on you.

The absence of archeological evidence for a person's existence is not proof they didn't exist. I doubt if there's any such proof for my existence, yet here I am.

You're right, of course about Moses. I didn't mean to imply that he wrote more than the Pentatuch.

Norma

norma98026

Jesus was resurrected from the dead nearly 2000 years ago. Not only his close followers but also over 500 people saw him alive. Their eye-witness accounts were recorded, and those manuscripts were copied so widely and preserved so well that when the printing press was finally invented about 550 years ago, the Bible was one of the first books printed. Are you saying that only an ancient manuscript that was 100% complete would justify further investigation of its content?

Norma

Diogenes the Cynic

Correct, but the logical default is to assume that such an obviously mythological character as Abraham did not exist until proven otherwise
This is completely circular. Essentially, I asked you if you could prove that a character in the Bible was real. You answer by citing the Bible. You can't use the Bible to prove the Bible. It doesn't work that way.
So what? What did they know?

Alexander the Great believed in Homeric characters like Achilles. Does that prove Achilles was real?
Once again, you're citing a belief to prove a belief. Completely circular and fallacious.
I actually haven't asserted that Abraham didn't exist, I just asked you what evidence you had that he did. You have none.

As it happens, the archaeological evidence does not support the claims made for an "Abrahamic" tribe migrating into Canaan and a close comparison of the text to the archaeology shows a number of historical anachronisms (such as an alleged use of camels before they were domesticated and mentions of towns which did not exist during the alleged time of Abraham.
What is your evidence that he even wrote that much?

Diogenes the Cynic

Nothing in the Bible is an eyewitness account of Jesus. We do not have a single extant piece of writing - not so much as a single word - which can be credibly attributed to an eyewitness, We don't even have anything which claims to have been written by an eywitness.