Magdlyn

Well, another tack to take is the one that it was Marcion who wrote Paul's letters. Maybe a Latin authorship (Paulus) was applied to these letters, and no Greek named author named Paul/Apollo ever existed.

Or, after a quick google, it seems to me there is agreement that, just as Judaeans took on Aramaic names in Babylon, they took on Greek names during the Hellenistic period and Latin names while the Romans were in power. Since the Romans rose to power around 100 BCE, why couldn't "Paul" have had a Latin name by mid 1st cent CE?

(BTW, Clouseau, there was no ordinance for a "circumcision name" being required until the 12th cent CE, acc to what I could find)

This page has some info you might appreciate:


http://www.livius.org/di-dn/diaspora/rome.html

in ref to a Jewish catacomb inscription:

Perhaps you can break down the names in Romans 16:1-16 by nationality? I don't believe there is any way of knowing if they were goyim or "Jews" however.

So, apparently, while rare, Roman "Jews" could carry a Roman name. Damascene "Jews," I dunno.

I put "Jew" in quotations b/c I don't really know what it meant to be a Jew before the Talmud was finalized and enforced.:huh:

Glad we're on the same pg as per Maccoby and Doherty! It's been a while since I read Maccoby. IIRC, it seems to me he relied on Acts of A's, as if it were actually historically accurate about Paul, a bit too much.

Clouseau

'On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise him, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he had been conceived.' Lk 2:21 NIV

Circumcision was part of the special identity of an Israelite, so records, with names, must have been made at an early date.

Magdlyn

Speculation. Evidence?

"Jesus", ie: Iesous, was a Greek name. Can you find a record of a Yeshua bar Joseph from around 4 BCE? No? Then I'd say Jesus had a Greek name, or at least a Hellenized Hebrew one, which doesn't count. For example, Jewish people today wouldn't call Solomon a Hebrew name. It's Shlomo in Hebrew.

Hebrew names were adapted into Greek and Latin forms. Later, those names morphed again. Iesous became Jesus, Mattathias become Matthew, etc.

Toto

What sort of evidence do you need? Paulus is a Roman name, used by people in the Roman Empire. Paulos is the Greek form of that name. Apollos is a completely different name, which would have been pronounced differently. Paul refers to another preacher known as Apollos - clearly a different person.

In English, the vowels represented by 'au' or 'o' before ll have tended to slide together, but that would not be true in Koine Greek. The 'u' in the 'au' diphtong ended up being pronounced as 'v', so Paulos becomes Pavlos in modern Greek.

Wikipedia (not necessarily a reliable sourcewikipedia then errs in listing Saulus as the Hebrew form of Paul, but what can you do.

Magdlyn

I also found the wiki pgs for "Hebrew names" and "Jewish names" using the NT as a source! And I assume those pgs were written by Jews. How ironic.

Doug Shaver

Tribe of Benjamin, yes. Formerly called Saul, no. There is no hint in Paul's own writings that he was ever known by any name but Paul.

The story of his name change seems to have been a figment of the imagination of the author of Acts.

Julian

Quite simple. It was a basic hellenization/romanization. His jewish name was Saul. How do you render that in the non-jewish world? As Paul (paulus/os). Same kinda thing for Jesus. Was Jesus really named Jesus? Not really, he had a jewish name, Joshua or Yeshua, whichever, I don't read hebrew. Same thing with Saul/Paul. This is why the name changes and there is no real explanation. No explanation is necessary. Saul was a jewish name and would have been goofy in Greek.

To wit, Saul is a Greek adjective (saulos) and would describe Paul as 'waddling like a whore.' Now, if it had meant 'acting like a whore' then he could have kept it.

Julian

Magdlyn

You've just ignored Doug's post. And you've ignored mine, where I posted that Roman names for "Jews" were extremely rare, even in the city of Rome itself, much less Cilica...


They rhyme, but that's about it. That's like saying Jesus=Peezus.

enoch007

You call it corn, but we call it maize.

spin

If I'm not mistaken, Paul never calls himself "Saul" (as Doug points out). We have to depend on Acts for the equivalence.

We do find substitutions of Greek names for Hebrew names, though the examples that come to mind are Jason for Yeshua, Simon for Shimeon and probably Menelaus for Manasseh (all Oniad high priests). You'll note that they are faithful with at least the initial consonants, so I would find the idea of Paul being derived from Saul highly suspect. It smells of a type of "folk-etymology" in later tradition trying to justify Paulos coming from Saul.


spin