Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spamandham · 05-21-2010, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

I believe that it is very improbable that any of Jesus' followers believed that he would rise from the dead, and would have been bold enough to publically admit it. Jesus criticized his disciples for their unbelief. Even the empty tomb did not convince Peter and Mary Magdalene.

I believe it is very improbable that there is even a kernel of truth to the idea of a historical Jesus at all....so....

Quote:

If guards were not posted at the tomb, and it was found empty three days after the body was put there, Jesus' followers would not have had any success claiming that he had risen from the dead.

...the guards are *needed* to counter the argument that the body was stolen. To me, this indicates a story that has probably already been reworked several times by the time we see it.

"Jesus rose form the dead"
- "Oh yah, so where was he buried?"

"No-one knows, because an empty tomb isn't important"
- "Sure. I bet his disciples just removed the body an reburied it. Everyone knows what a bunch of flim flammers they are."

"Oh yah, well they couldn't have done that because there were guards at the tomb"
- "...and how do you know this? If there were guards, and the body went missing, the guards would have been strung up and Pilate would have buried the story"

"Well, there were some witnesses who saw it"
- "Well who are they? I'd love to talk to someone reliable."

"Well, they aren't really reliable, they're women."
- "pulllleeeze"

aa5874 · 05-22-2010, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Even if Jesus was buried in Joseph of Arimathea's tomb, and guards were posted at the tomb, and it was found empty, without appearances by Jesus, the best case that anyone could have made would have been that Jesus spiritually rose from the dead and did not make any appearances. Thus, all of the accounts of the events at the tomb are irreleveant without appearances by Jesus.

If I had realized that before, I would not have started this thread.

But, that is exactly what I have been trying to show you. The assumed appearances of Jesus must make the empty tomb relevant.

My is father is dead but if people had claimed that they saw him ALIVE the third day after he was buried I would have had to RE-VISIT the burial site and look for signs of tampering.

If my father was buried in a tomb once he was reported to be ALIVE it is a most obvious reaction to first check the tomb for his body.

If it is missing then I would have a major problem even if I personally NEVER saw him alive after the burial. I would have to launch an investigation.

Now, my father was human and once his body was missing then some-one MUST have STOLEN the body or REMOVED the body without PERMISSION.

The post-resurrection appearances would be LIES.

Johnny Skeptic · 05-22-2010, 07:10 AM

I recently started a new thread at http://freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=287252. The title is "Some concessions for the sake of argument." So far, I like that thread better than any of the other threads that I have started about the empty tomb, the guards, and Jesus' appearances. I request that we continue our discussions in the new thread that I mentioned.

I would like to thank skeptics for helping me weed out invalid arguments.

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05-22-2010, 07:10 AM	#13
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	I recently started a new thread at http://freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=287252. The title is "Some concessions for the sake of argument." So far, I like that thread better than any of the other threads that I have started about the empty tomb, the guards, and Jesus' appearances. I request that we continue our discussions in the new thread that I mentioned. I would like to thank skeptics for helping me weed out invalid arguments.

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