Sven

While you're on it: Ask any Jew if he agrees with the above. Ask any Jew if there's something like the new covenant. Ask any Jew if he thinks that Jesus perfectly followed the law.

And BTW, having one example of someone following the law perfectly and then alls Jews copying him is a huge non-sequitur. So you still have not presented a shred of evidence that the Jews were indeed looking for such an example (or, using your former words, waiting for a saviour).

I'm currently browsing http://whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation03.html
There's a list what the Jewish messiah is supposed to do. Nowhere in this list is anything about salvation or the following the law perfectly.

Is it possible that you are just making all of this as you go along?

There's an interesting quote at the end:

Quite simply, we Jews invented the term, "messiah." When we are told by those of the Christian faith [...] that our definition, the Jewish definition of "messiah" is incorrect, it is like someone who does not speak English telling a person whose native tongue is English that the word "electrician" means someone who fixes the plumbing.

:wave:

(1) Umm, please read the above again. Especially note the choice of words: "wanted" and "today".
(2) You are the one making the claim. Please go on and ask some, then present me their answers. You know the phrase "shifting the burden of proof"?

Anyway, I did some research, and found this:

It is important to remember that unlike some religions, Judaism is not focused on the question of how to get into heaven. Judaism is focused on life and how to live it.

from http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm (this website incidentally argues for a belief in an afterlife, but (1) as you plainly against the idea of salvation and (2) I think it only demonstrates more contradictions in the bible this way)

More from there ( http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm ):

Modern scholars suggest that the messianic concept was introduced later in the history of Judaism, during the age of the prophets. They note that the messianic concept is not mentioned anywhere in the Torah (the first five books of the Bible).

The article of course then goes on to argue otherwise (see my comment 2 above). More:

The word "moshiach" does not mean "savior." The notion of an innocent [...] being who [...] save[s] us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought.

I'm no expert, but "innocent" and "following all the laws" seems to be quite close.

So, what was your claim again?

I see. Your evidence that the OT agrees with what the NT says is: The NT says something different. Do you really think about what you write?

:banghead:

And I notice that you entirely ignored my main point: That in the OT punishments and awards were always and explicitely earthly thinhs. My argument isn't only the absence of evidence (absence of an afterlife mentioned in the OT), it is rather positive evidence that the results of the deeds of the Jews always happened to them on Earth.

Why won't you address this?

Sven

*bump*

First try to get Helpmabob to address my post above.

Helpmabob

Hi Boro Nut -

The christian men of faith back then believed exactly the same as they do now - that Christ was the Son of God and was raised from the tomb to an everlasting life. In terms of importance, the miracles were a side show to the central event, used to re-inforce the gospel message. Non-christians I daresay could independently choose to believe whether miracles were possible. For those that witnessed them, there was little doubt as to their possibility.Well, the motivation is different. The salesman works on commission. Missionaries are typically unpaid, motivated by something else entirely.

Hi Sven - Jewish ways seem like little fun, but I like discussing things, so... It depends which Jew you ask. As all atheists and all christians are not the same, so it is with all Jews. Some would be looking for a powerful Messianic leader or king, and others something else. Still others may not have been expecting one at all (as your post pointed out).

So, I do agree that not all Jews were expecting Jesus, and as many reject Him today as rejected Him during His lifetime. Jesus is more recognisable as the Messiah in hindsight rather than while he lived. Most Jews are still waiting for the Messiah or 'moshiach'.Here's another list - it depends who you ask. http://www.shalom.org.uk/Messiah/Messiahpages.htm

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all... [Isaiah 53]

I said - Hmb: They wanted salvation. I will happily change that to I don't know exactly what they wanted. But some were commended later in the NT as righteous for living by faith (e.g. Enoch; Noah; Abraham; etc.).

Note I am saying absolutely nothing here about what it is I feel they need - only what I think it is they wanted.

Follow all the laws of the land and you will be innocent in the eyes of the lawyers and judges. Follow all the laws of God and you will be innocent in His sight.

Christ came to free from the Jews from Judaism; from the need to follow sets of rules. The existence of rules through Moses.The consequences happened to them on the earth, that is true (Flood; plagues). Some of the things we do today have consequences on earth too (Chenobyl). But the OT related to the Old covenant, and the NT to the New covenant, so the consequences under each may be different. Yet the New Testament and the Old Testament fit together as one. The NT explains a lot of what the OT was about. Jesus quoted Himself from the OT to make His points in the NT.

Boro Nut

They can't have done. Firstly they weren't christians back then, and secondly Christ hadn't died. Try again.

No they weren't. If you were witnessing a "miracle" you couldn't possibly have known anything about the "central event". If you only learned about the central event afterwards third hand you couldn't possibly have been a witness to the supposed miracles.

Christians can choose not to believe in miracles just as well, and many do. Some prominent churchmen don't even believe in the physical resurection. There is not, nor has there ever been, anything that can be summarised as christian belief.

Unfortunately the most prominent seem to be nothing more than money-grubbing scum. Genuine missionaries believe they are going to get a free timeshare. Plenty of motivation.

Being promised a powerful Messianic leader or king does tend to have that effect. It's all to easy to fall into the trap of expecting a powerful messianic leader or king. Makes it easier to spot false messiahs mind you. Shouldn't be too hard to fool others who don't know the first thing about the promise though. Oh I don't know, say, someone who hasn't read the clauses and isn't even a party to the contract, like a gentile or something.

Whilst technically not factually incorrect, that's like saying not all pigs fly.

Bit of an impediment for a messiah then. It's pretty much the prime qualification. The pubs are full of gobshites, but there's only one Prime Minister.

Yeah. Luckilly we've got the good shepherd to set the wolves on us, for doing our best to find a few strands of shrivelled grass before he fancies lamb chops again.

I bet he wishes he'd only thought to tell them.


Heres a list of interesting concepts you may wish to research.
Chronology.
Before.
After.
Subsequent.

Ah, so all a Jew really needed was a copy of the New Testament. Which was published when exactly?

Only between the covers of the bible. It's a different god. Bad god, good god. One god, then two gods, then three. Do the maths. There must be hundreds by now.

Boro Nut

Sven

You know what'`s interesting? I have presented lots of evidence against your claims - you, on the other hand continue to make claims without a shred of support so far; granted, there's at least one link in this post (see below). And please note that you will have to provide evidence that a substantial portion (say, at least 20%) of Jews believe what you claim they do. Otherwise your claim is boring; in every group of believers you will have a small minority with differing beliefs.

Yeah. And they explain quite well why they reject Jesus, and in hindsight, too.
For some "strange" reason, their explanations are never addressed by Christians.

Sorry, I can not access this page - could you please post the relevant parts?

Oh, no, not this old canard again...
Aptly dealt with here: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=151782

Unfortuantely, what you think is not an argument.

This is what the NT says (if you ingore some parts which say otherwise), yes - but your claim was the consistency of the OT and NT. So I once again fail to see how this helps your case.

So you think Chernobyl was a punishment from god?
If not, you entirely ignored (missed?) my point: That Yaweh punished them for their deeds on Earth.

This is what the NT says (if you ingore some parts which say otherwise), yes - but your claim was the consistency of the OT and NT. So I once again fail to see how this helps your case.

You continue to claim this, while at the same time pointing out differences. Do you really don't see the double-thinking here?

May I remind you that you are assuming a lot here in these two sentences?

And isn't it strange that the people who wrote the OT for the most part disagree with these supposed explanations?

Doug Shaver

So said some people claiming to be his followers. The man himself (assuming there was one) never said so.

Helpmabob

Hi Boro Nut – Then we agree that it is possible to either believe or not believe that miracles are possible.A splendid observation, BN, which with your permission, I have filed for future use.

Hi Sven - I don’t see how specifying a minimum mass of adherents to a particular belief necessarily gives it any additional credence.The Bible does say that few will find the narrow way to heaven.The apostle Paul didn’t reject Jesus.We are allowed to offer genuine personal opinions and thoughts on a discussion forum. I am keen to know what you and others think. If all we do is argue, then we quickly tend to go over the same information before reaching the same conclusions as others previously have. By introducing and sharing new experiences, there is more knowledge to hand on which to base decisions.Probably not. It was a consequence, stemming from man mixing over-confidence with ineptitude.This does not preclude possible consequences after death. There was a recognition of the spiritual dimension in the OT.

Sven

So what? You were the one who claimed that Jews believe this. You have just shifted the goalposts to: "Well, there are some Jews who believe this (just as the bible says)". IOW, you have just reduced your original claim to what we already know: in every group of believers you will have a small minority with differing beliefs. Boring.

Well, and? "In every group of believers you will have a small minority with differing beliefs. Boring."
Apart from this, you still ignore their explanations. Why I'm not surprised?

Unfortunately, you did not even try to substantiate your claims by posting the relevant points from the website you linked to.

Of course. I just wanted to point out that thoughts are not arguments - otherwise, a lurker might fall for it.

:huh: You did not introduce/share experiences, but your opinion. You know the saying about opinions...?

Sven: So you think Chernobyl was a punishment from god?
I see. Then why bring it up in a discussion of god's punishments?

:banghead:
No. It also does not preclude the Flying Spaghetti Monster using humans as ketchup (sp?) after death. My point simply is that the OT (especially the torah) does only mention punishments/rewards on Earth. So your claim that the OT and the NT agree on the afterlife simply has no substance at all. Simply saying that the OT does not say anything against an afterlife obviously does not help to substantiate your claim.

Nice buzzwords. Your point?

Helpmabob

Hi Sven - You have some Jews still waiting the coming of their Mosiach, who continue to follow the ways of the OT and its laws. Then others, the ‘completed’ Jews have laid claim to Jesus as their Saviour - as He said (I paraphrase): “I have not come to destroy the law, but to fulfil it.” There is yawning gulf between the two positions – any idea why should that be?I am, in fact, talking about my practical experience of the gospel here, and how the OT dovetails beautifully into the NT. I suppose it is your prerogative to decide whether you accept that this is a genuine experience I am recounting, or something else, such as an opinion only.I don’t see God here on earth, but still I believe, through faith and experience. It is similar with the authenticity of the two testaments. There were some differences: God was in the world in the OT; in the NT He is in His people. From the garden of Eden and Jacob’s ladder in Genesis, a spiritual dimension was evident in the OT – this was clear to the Jews of old.

Sven

Apparently, you have reading comprehension problems: "in every group of believers you will have a small minority with differing beliefs. Boring."
Apart, from this, why are there 20 000+ different denominations of Christianity, some with quite different ideas of heaven, hell, and salvation?
Maybe because, as you said, the bible is [clear and] consistent on these topics? [In case you did not notice: This is irony.]

How can one "experience" that two texts fit together? I think (opinion, not argument) you are just talking crap here.

I see. Instead of addressing my arguments or providing some evidence for your claims (which you could have easily done by posting the relevant parts of your linked article) you just prefer to say you have faith that you are correct.

I don't think it's of any use bothering with this any longer. Bye.