premjan

Apparently Muslims in Malaysia (maybe other countries too) are not permitted to convert out of Islam to another religion. Do you think that Muslims should be permitted to convert away from Islam? Why does a relatively liberal Islamic country like Malaysia make a rule like this? What is the situation in Indonesia (anyone know?). I believe that Islamic families are often deeply embarassed / dishonored to admit having an atheist member or one who would convert to another religion. Why must a non-Muslim convert to Islam before they can marry a Muslim. Feel free to address any further related issues.

lenrek

Yes! Definitely, all of us has the right to choose and decide what is best for ourselves. This should be applied to the choice of religion/belief.

There seems to be some suggestion that some Islamic fundamental movement is at its work in Malaysia. If one read the Malaysia constitution, it stated explicitly the freedom of religion (and belief). However, in the 70s upto now, a movement to bring the Muslim closer to the "true" teaching of Islam seems to bring about these changes.

For Muslim in Malaysia, when there is an issue with their faith in their religion, they will not be put on trial under civil law, but under Islamic law. Which give no option for deconversion. Punishment is most certain if that individual insist of deconversion.

Currently, there seems to be some signs that suggesting that the current administration is doing something in reversing it, but time will tell how this will turn out.

You can read more about those who wish to leave Islam in Malaysia here:

http://www.murtadd.org/

No idea, but I heard that even though Indonesia has the largest Muslim population in the world, the gov still commited in being a secular state.

Not only felt embarassed or dishonored, but they most likely will disown the ex-muslim if refuse to return to Islam.

Good question! I heard is stated in the Qur'an. But I am not sure... I personally think is just another way of (perverted) religious spreading scheme...

ScMay

This is a common "rule" in many cultures, most christians untill more recent times would be frowned upon for trying to marry someone just from another denomination of christianity (especially in Ireland). Hindus prefer Hindus, Jews prefer Jews ect ect. It all depends on how strict the local culture is, liberals don't care but Fundies will.

mirage

Actually, most "liberals" who aren't young highly educated types care deeply. I know Muslims (and Hindus) in the UK who have had enormous problems from their families because of mixed religion relationships. And these are liberal rich educated families.

premjan

If it was just a "preference" it might be acceptable since through compromise a solution might be reached. However, to threaten apostasy with death, is quite a different kettle of fish.

orac

"Liberal theist" and "fundy theist" are terms that are often abused.

For example, "fundy" doesn't necessarily mean "foaming at the mouth fire-and-brimstone preacher" and often the phrase "I'm a liberal not a fundy" is a preface to a statement that implies a genuine belief in one's chosen deity and a desire to follow even some of the nasty and unpleasant laws of the holy book. (I'm not sure it's really a useful distinction to make, anyway. Who cares if a person is fundy or liberal if they're campaigning for government mandated sanctions against non-believers?)

A great many theists seem to be either verging on atheism or deeply fundamentalist with regards to the relationship and sexual laws of their chosen religion.

As for why these laws exist: if a muslim and a christian marry, the priests of both religions will be terrified that the kids will be bought up to believe in the other religion, or may decide to pick neither. There's also the minor detail that discovering that the other lot aren't pure evil will hurt the priests' chances of blame all the evils of the world on the outsiders. If the non-believers, the outsides, the members of the other tribe are good people, what makes us special?

Sure, today the laws are encouraged by the priests because, well, that's what they've always done - but there's plenty of people who still take them very seriously.

It doesn't really matter what the law of the land is, either - if the priests can have a person killed or socially outcast, deconversion can really hurt even if the secular judge won't throw one in jail. It's a common feature of cults - no contact with friends and family who aren't in the group, and no contact with anyone who leaves. It's a very effective and unpleasant trick for keeping bums on seat, tithes coming in, and people obeying the priests.

variant 13

Actually it depends on the gender of the person involved, men can marry non-muslim women but the other way round it is frowned upon.

The idea behind it is that men being the head of the house will be the one to pass on their religion to the kids when then come along. An example of this is (sorry for the insensitivity) the woman that got her head cut off in Iraq, catholic when she married a muslim and a catholic when she died (according to the news today that is).

For the moderate and liberal muslims there is no compulsion of religion, the fundy types are moreof a problem. Much like the christians were, what Islam needs is a good reformation (though careful when telling muslims that they tend to get upset ).

Hopefully it's not too far off, I saw a good sign. Iran is on the cusp of a cultural revoltion, what with the internet and TV influencing the young people. I saw a BBC program on it a few weeks ago, will see if I can find a link tomorrow.

Philippe*

I believe that in the Charia, if you deconvert, it is punished by death, it gives a licence to kill to the muslims. And even trying to deconvert a muslim is punished by death. Actually I have discussed with muslims and for the moderate muslims, it is a problem between you and Allah, so one should be careful before choosing the path of Islam. In the Quran, it is said that if you are muslim before marriage you must marry a muslim, something like that.

Philippe