Freethought & Rationalism Archive

WishboneDawn · 08-20-2007, 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuart shepherd

Did they have a patron or patrons who bankrolled their operation?
Did they pass the basket around at each stop on their travels?

....

Or is this just another proof that the whole story is a fairy tale?

I'm not sure how your question, built on assumptions (how mant kids could they really have if they're running around all the time and not home to get some nookie?) and to which you've offered a couple of reasonable answers even approaches proof.

Chili · 08-20-2007, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuart shepherd

So how did the Apostles support themselves and their families while they and Jesus traveled around?

Epiphany gave them the wherewithal to do that. The Apostles are the reformed shepherds each with a large flock to convert and they were all Jewish, I think, because it is the greatest story ever told about an upright Jew called Joseph.

Chili · 08-20-2007, 04:24 AM

Nookie in Nova Scotia? (and here I thought I coined that word).

stuart shepherd · 08-20-2007, 12:51 PM

Perhaps it was a mistake to introduce this thread.
It just seemed to me that the whole gospel story of Jesus traveling around the country had an "air" of fabrication.

In a couple of places Jesus tells his followers to travel "light"
Matthew 10:9-10 (King James Version)
9Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

10Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

It would seem to me that 13 men traveling together would need money and supplies. They didn't have a donkey because when Jesus enters Jerusalem he has to borrow a donkey.

I don't buy that sleeping outdoors as in the garden of Gethsemene. I have been to Israel in April, Passover, and it is cold at night. There is also a lot of dew in the morning.

I only introduced this topic because in the movies Jesus is shown walking around with his disciples and they are not carrying anything. It seems to be a false picture of what is really required to travel around with so many men.

stuart shepherd

OneInFundieville · 08-20-2007, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuart shepherd

Somehow I think that Christians never consider the logistics involved with the gospel stories.

Somehow, I think you're missing a major theme of the story. A good number of Jesus' miracles are work-arounds from this-or-that logistical snafu.

The knowledge of Christ, the divinity of Christ, and all that have been debated back and forth over the centuries. While that may be a bit confusing, what's clear is that Jesus of Nazareth is the Lord of the Logistical Quick Fix.

(I remember in a Bible study class years ago asking why Jesus didn't teach the disciplines better planning skills.)

Toto · 08-20-2007, 01:12 PM

No, this is a valid topic, even if it got derailed.

The traveling preacher part is believable. There were wandering Cynic sages and other such people in 1st century Palestine. They survived on rich widows or other supporters, or what they could beg in the marketplace.

Paula Fredriksen on historical Jesus research: (from p. 3)

Quote:

Jesus, according to Burton Mack and others, was a wandering Cynic.(5) This reconstruction draws on archaeological data and a knowledge of Hellenistic philosophy. It privileges the sayings material (known as Q) over the narrative material in the Gospels--the opposite of Sander's approach--as the best way to get at Jesus' intention and teaching. It looks to wisdom traditions within Judaism rather than, say, prophetic or apocalyptic ones, for a consonant context.

On the basis of archaeology, proponents of this model of Jesus as Cynic can argue that Galilee itself had considerable cities built in the Hellenistic style--Sepphoris, only a short walk from Nazareth, and Tiberias. "Lower Galilee was an urbanized region."(6) Ringed round with the Hellenistic cities from the Seleucid era, Galilee was itself "an epitome of Hellenistic culture."(7)

. . .

Q1 is the clue to Jesus. Comprised of pithy sayings and aphoristic social critique, it most resembles in form and content the wit and wisdom of the wandering Cynic sage. This insight, in turn, coheres with Jesus' known modus operandi and his call to followers: Live on the road; be homeless; travel light--again like the Cynic. Cynics were urban creatures, and Galilee was urban, so this is not impossible. Thus, Jesus, a radical individual in the mode of a Cynic philosopher, addressed other individuals, inviting them through his subversive wit to live as he did. . . .

Read more at that article about wandering Jewish sages.

drewjmore · 08-20-2007, 02:16 PM

They did carry money:

Quote:

4But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, 5"Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages.[a]" 6He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...20;&version=31;

driver8 · 08-20-2007, 04:12 PM

Reading 1 Corinthians made me think of Billy Graham crusades.

In 1 Cor 9 he seems to take the high road in stating he has a right to accept money but chooses not to:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0;&version=31;

Quote:

11 If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you?
12 If others have this right of support from you, shouldn't we have it all the more? But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ.
13 Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar?
14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.
15 But I have not used any of these rights. And I am not writing this in the hope that you will do such things for me. I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of this boast.

But, in verse 16, we get this gem:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...=16&version=31

Quote:

1 Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do.
2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.
3 Then, when I arrive, I will give letters of introduction to the men you approve and send them with your gift to Jerusalem.
4 If it seems advisable for me to go also, they will accompany me.

So, the author is above accepting money directly but he doesn't mind going along just to make sure it reaches its proper destination.

How little things change.

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08-20-2007, 04:24 AM	#13
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	Nookie in Nova Scotia? (and here I thought I coined that word).

08-20-2007, 12:51 PM	#14
stuart shepherd Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 315	Perhaps it was a mistake to introduce this thread. It just seemed to me that the whole gospel story of Jesus traveling around the country had an "air" of fabrication. In a couple of places Jesus tells his followers to travel "light" Matthew 10:9-10 (King James Version) 9Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, 10Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. It would seem to me that 13 men traveling together would need money and supplies. They didn't have a donkey because when Jesus enters Jerusalem he has to borrow a donkey. I don't buy that sleeping outdoors as in the garden of Gethsemene. I have been to Israel in April, Passover, and it is cold at night. There is also a lot of dew in the morning. I only introduced this topic because in the movies Jesus is shown walking around with his disciples and they are not carrying anything. It seems to be a false picture of what is really required to travel around with so many men. stuart shepherd

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