Vorkosigan

Alas, both are inevitable! But a great first post. Wallener: how do you think the 360 day year originated?

agator

Here are the Hebrew concordance numbers for you to look up. I don't understand what you are claiming. Perhaps I am mis understanding your point or in the wrong verse. Maybe you can clarify your point. Thanks
KnowH3045H3045 therefore and understandH7919H7919, that from the goingH4161H4161 forthH4161H4161 of the commandmentH1697H1697 to restoreH7725H7725 and to buildH1129H1129 JerusalemH3389H3389 unto the MessiahH4899H4899 the PrinceH5057H5057 shall be sevenH7651H7651 weeksH7620H7620, and threescoreH8346H8346 and twoH8147H8147 weeksH7620H7620: the streetH7339H7339 shall be builtH1129H1129 againH7725H7725, and the wallH2742H2742, even in troublousH5916H5916 timesH6256H6256.

To my knowledge, the early Jews observed a lunar calendar of approximately 354 days—12 months of about 29½ days—adding an intercalary month every three years or so to bring things back into line with the sun’s cycle. This system was later changed to a simpler lunisolar year of 360 days—12 months of 30 days—like that used by the Babylonians.
“they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.� (Revelation 11:2-3) Forty-two months and 1,260 days are the same length of time here. This is a 360 day year.

The hebrew word used was mâshıyach
H4899. It means anointed, or Messiah. It is from
H4886; mâshach; which means to rub with oil, to anoint;
While predictions regarding the Messiah’s nature, advents, mission and message permeate the Tanakh, the title itself can only be found twice in the entirety of Yahweh’s Scripture. Both occurrences are in Daniel.
…“until the Mashiyach (Anointed, Consecrated, Messiah), the Nagiyd (from nagad—the one who stands out front, boldly and opposite, manifesting and announcing, exposing, predicting, explaining, praising, certifying, declaring, denouncing, expounding plainly as a messenger rehearsing the report; an honorable leader in all aspects of life—physical and spiritual, a Governor and a Prince)…�

“Anointed� means to be covered by or filled with Yahweh’s Spirit. And while that’s important, let’s examine what “Nagiyd� says about the nature of the Messiah. He will be a “manifestation who announces and exposes� specifically what Yahweh is like and what must be done to reach Him. The “Anointed One will stand out in front of men�—a very clear and accurate presentation of the purpose of Yahweh’s Messianic manifestation. God took the form of a man to demonstrate His nature in front of men. When John says we have found the Messias G3323, it is of the same Hebrew origin [H4899]; the Messias (that is, Mashiach), —Messiah.

When one goes back to the original Hebrew in which it was inspired, you won't be subject to the mistranslations as the Hebrew language was on its way out and is not a moving target to pin point the meanings of the words used. I agree that the KJV is a feeble translation.

Jack the Bodiless

Could this be read: "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks: and [after] threescore and two weeks the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times"?
The Babylonians did not use a 360-day year without a correction factor. Nobody could have: at least, not for long.

Wallener

My brain is small and I'm fighting off a chest cold, so one issue at a time for me, if that's alright. It is not the use of the word translated as "Messiah/Annointed" that is the issue, it is the article (not) preceeding it.

Moshiach nagid -> An Annointed Prince

The text does not use the definitive "the". EG, "the moon", as opposed to "a moon". And since there is more than one "messiah" in Tanakh...

agator

I'm not fighting off a cold so I am without excuse I suppose.
Here is what I posted earlier: to buildH1129H1129 JerusalemH3389H3389 unto THE MessiahH4899H4899
Are you claiming that the original didn't have this word in it? On what authority? I don't think I follow you.

spin

agator, you don't know Hebrew. There is no article (H- in Hebrew) in the Hebrew text. There is no reason from the text to insert an article. Therefore the "the" shouldn't be there, ie the noun is indefinite.


spin

agator

A “week� is literally a “seven.� It could be seven days or seven years. The context is the key, and the context here clearly indicates that a seven-year “week� is meant. (Seventy weeks of days is only sixteen months, not nearly enough time for the fulfillment of the whole prophecy. And elsewhere when Daniel means a week of seven days, he spells it out, as in 10:2, “three weeks of days.�) “Seventy weeks� is therefore seventy seven-year periods, or 490 years.

The starting date of Daniel’s prophecy is the 1st of Nisan, 444 B.C.
From this date, we must count “seven weeks and sixty two weeks.� That is, there would be forty-nine years until Jerusalem’s “street and wall� were built, “even in troublesome times�—the Books of Ezra and Nehemiah relate just how troublesome they were—and another 434 years, or 483 years total, “until Messiah the Prince.� 483 years times 360 days—the length of the standard Hebrew year—comes out to 173,880 days, or 476 solar years and 25 days inclusive, i.e., March 28, A.D. 33 (remember, there is no year zero). And on March 28, A.D. 33, Yahshua of Nazareth rode into Jerusalem on a donkey amid the adulation of a teeming throng of Jewish worshipers in town for the Passover holiday.
The ultimate Passover lamb had entered the household of Israel. Four days later, on April 1st (or the 14th of Nisan, Passover) that is, immediately “after the sixty-two weeks,� Yahshua was “cut off".

That is correct.The Babylonians observed a luni-solar calendar, which added an intercalary month every five or six years to adjust for the shifting seasons.

edited by mod to add some /quote's for clarity - If I got it wrong, PM me.

agator

Hebrew lacked several letters( like a "J") and was pointed to show the vowels so that the Scriptures could be read.The various pronunciations are a product of the vowel points that were added 2,000 years after the Torah was written. But when you view the DSS, you will see YHWH about 7000 times! How was it done if their is no "H"? And how do you know what I know or don't know ?

spin

Every three. You lose about ten days per year. After three years you add another month and you basically catch up.

It's quite amusing to see an apparent bible literalist claiming that Daniel gave a prophecy on the 1st of Nisan, 444 BCE, considering that Daniel was a minister under Nebuchadnezxzar who died in 561 BCE.


The Persians used a 360 day calendar. It was the calendar used in Palestine under Persian rule and against which Enoch writes telling its readers that an extra four days was necessary at the end of each season. As there is no trace of the Babylonian calendar in Enoch, we should assume that it wasn't in circulation at the time of the writing of Enoch (Astronomical Book). That's not hard to understand: it was Antiochus IV who was accused of changing the seasons when he had the Babylonian calendar used in Jerusalem.


spin

post tenebras lux

Agator, can you please, please, please, stop writing within other people's quotes when you're quoting them as I - and I suspect others - can't work out what the hell you're on about.

I can't work out what your translation of Dan 9:24-27 is, and would greatly appreciate it if you could post a copy of your translation here in clean (i.e. not within somebodyelse's quote and without the word numbers). Thanks in advance.

Here is the (jewish) translation that I trust over the KJV or any christian version:

24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sin, and to forgive iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal vision and prophet, and to anoint the most holy place.
25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto one anointed, a prince, shall be seven weeks; and for threescore and two weeks, it shall be built again, with broad place and moat, but in troublous times.
26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more; and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; but his end shall be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and upon the wing of detestable things shall be that which causeth appalment; and that until the extermination wholly determined be poured out upon that which causeth appalment.

Thanks in advance for posting your translation.

Luxie