Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bingo the Clown-O · 10-26-2012, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Jews didn't like to even write the word YHWH so they inserted marks to turn it into Adonai.

Are you sure?

Doesn’t Codex Leningradensis and Codex Aleppo read “ha-shema?”

Bingo the Clown-O · 10-26-2012, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Jews didn't like to even write the word YHWH so they inserted marks to turn it into Adonai.

What are your thoughts on the Psalm 14:2 v. Psalm 53:2 fiasco?

What did it originally say?

Did somebody add the name Yahweh?

Or did somebody take it away?

Bingo the Clown-O · 10-26-2012, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Jews didn't like to even write the word YHWH ...

What about Genesis 14?

Do you think the author of Genesis 14 ever even heard of YHWH?

And what about Genesis 33?

Do you think the author of Genesis 33 ever heard of YHWH?

Bingo the Clown-O · 10-26-2012, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwaarddijk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bingo the Clown-O

Except 4Q120 is Greek and uses IAW for the divine name.

We only know one sect of Judaism to have gone to great lengths at avoiding uttering the tetragrammaton - the Pharisees. We have reason to think the scrolls at Qumran do not represent the Pharisees very much.

But doesn’t 1QS (Rule of the Community) read something like this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1QS

Whoever enunciates the Name which is honored above all … […] whether blaspheming, or suddenly overtaken by misfortune or for any reason, […] or reading a book, or blessing, will be excluded and shall not go back ever to the Community council.

Iskander · 10-26-2012, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Christians did not remove YHWH from the LXX. Jews typically used diacritical marks in the Hebrew (basically vowel indicators) to alter the written Tetragrammaton to read as Adonai instead of as YHWH (this works in Hebrew letters). That diacritical circumlocution was translated into the LXX as Kurios, and Christians inherited the LXX. Christians themselves never had anything to do with translating compiling or editing the LXX and Christianity has never had any prohibition on the use of the Tetragrammaton. They originally just used a translation of the Tanakh which preserved an artifact of Jewish circumlocution. Jews didn't like to even write the word YHWH so they inserted marks to turn it into Adonai. This altered spelling got translated intact as Kurios into Greek. The alteration was done in Hebrew before it was translated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnrWDmh9ygY
Shema Yisrael - Study version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8uy-PqtyxA
Shema Prayer by Rabbi Korngold
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfF6-...eature=related
שמע ישראל - shema israel

for fun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xiyna...eature=related

Toto · 12-30-2012, 02:21 PM

Getting back to the OP, so as not to start a new thread, there is a review of Collins book here

Quote:

There is surely no better example of academics collectively acting like angels dancing on pinheads than the sorry saga of the Dead Sea Scrolls. ....

Once studied, it was confidently claimed, these 900 scrolls, some of them little more than fragments, would finally allow the claims of Christianity regarding the historical Jesus, and his context, to be seen afresh. At first all went swimmingly. In the 1950s and into the 1960s, there was a steady flow of books setting out the theories agreed by most of the first generation of scholars given access to this precious haul – namely, that most of it related to a sect of Jews, the Essenes, who had lived an ascetic life at Qumran close to the cave.

. . . . .Where once there was excitement about what this extraordinary stash might tell us about a period that saw the birth of one of the world's major religions, today for most there is only bemusement. Even though we know we should care, we have no ready means of weighing the competing claims, but equally we are not so daft that we cannot see when history has been subverted to sectarian ends, to the egos of scholars and to the cash registers.

But a saviour is at hand. John Collins – a good, plain name that is very appropriate on the jacket of a good, plain book – is an Old Testament professor at Yale. In his short, sharp, snappy "biography", he rehearses all the various theories on the scrolls, separates the wheat from the chaff, and brings light to the darkness. This is not simply a digest. Collins takes our hand and guides us to oh-so-reasonable conclusions.

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