Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Loomis · 12-29-2009, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larkin31

And, furthermore, you might answer my question (that I have asked twice) about why you both reject the Bible as false evidence and yet still list it most often as your "source" to contradict HJ. You appear to be playing loosely with a source that you both want to reject and still use when it suits you.

If you are going to debunk the historicity of Superman you have to read the stories.

How can anyone hold an opinion on Superman without reading the stories?

The stories about Superman are all we have to form an opinion.

The stories about Superman do not support his historicity.

The stories about Superman do support his non-historicity.

The historical Superman a most senseless proposition.

Larkin31 · 12-29-2009, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larkin31

I am defending Christians from your mischaracterizations and pointing out your errors of logic.

I can’t see where you’ve ever done that.

Could you give us a quick synopsis?

I see no sense in repeating earlier posts. The person I was responding to well knows what I mean.

Larkin31 · 12-29-2009, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larkin31

I mistake nothing in this case. It was this arrogant remark:

Are you calling me "a loser"?? That's choice.

I am not leaning this way. I am defending Christians from your mischaracterizations and pointing out your errors of logic. Your bombastic and belligerent posts are too much for me to resist. :huh:

Why are you doing this? Why are trying to close my thread? ...

I'll assume that although you are quoting me, that you are actually addressing someone else.

Apology accepted.

Larkin31 · 12-29-2009, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larkin31

And, furthermore, you might answer my question (that I have asked twice) about why you both reject the Bible as false evidence and yet still list it most often as your "source" to contradict HJ. You appear to be playing loosely with a source that you both want to reject and still use when it suits you.

If you are going to debunk the historicity of Superman you have to read the stories.

How can anyone hold an opinion on Superman without reading the stories?

The stories about Superman are all we have to form an opinion.

The stories about Superman do not support his historicity.

The stories about Superman do support his non-historicity.

The historical Superman a most senseless proposition.

This thread is about the Bible and Jesus.

And I do know that you are being sardonic.

Loomis · 12-29-2009, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larkin31

I also think it behooves us to consider the nature and style of the writing. These texts are likely written before some of the dates being mentioned above, so a more persuasive argument is needed concerning the dates, authors, and motivations.

And especially, if one is going to argue for a large political conspiracy of fabrication, one must argue quite convincingly. I read conspiracy theories with a jaundiced eye. Nearly always, the simpler explanation that answers the details is the better one (a group of folks who had met and seen this healer-peasant did believe that he was divine and did exaggerate his powers).

Get a load of the Genesis Apocryphon. It’s written in Aramaic near a time and place where Jesus supposedly lived. It includes a re-write of Genesis from first-person perspectives of Noah and Abraham.

Here’s Noah …

Column 6
Then, I Noah became a man that clung to truth and seized... I took Amzara, his daughter as my wife. She conceived and bore me three sons and daughters. I Then took wives from my brother's family for my sons, and I gave my daughters to my nephews according to the law of the eternal precept which Most High ordained to the sons of man ...

And here’s Abraham …

Column 19
I, Abraham built and alter (at Bethel) and called to god, praising him. I then went to the Holy Mountain and to Hebron where he lived for two years. Because there was famine in the land my family and I traveled to Egypt where grain was plentiful. I went across the branches of the Nile to enter Egypt, the land of the sons of Ham. I had a dream about a cedar tree and a date-palm tree …

Do you see how colorful this is? Do you see how creative the author was? He was rewriting Genesis with complete abandonment.

Was this part of a conspiracy theory? :devil:

Was the author trying to trick someone? :devil:

Do you admit that a conspiracy is not necessary in order to motivate someone to write outrageous fiction based on characters in the OT? (Y/N)

Larkin31 · 12-29-2009, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larkin31

I also think it behooves us to consider the nature and style of the writing. These texts are likely written before some of the dates being mentioned above, so a more persuasive argument is needed concerning the dates, authors, and motivations.

And especially, if one is going to argue for a large political conspiracy of fabrication, one must argue quite convincingly. I read conspiracy theories with a jaundiced eye. Nearly always, the simpler explanation that answers the details is the better one (a group of folks who had met and seen this healer-peasant did believe that he was divine and did exaggerate his powers).

Get a load of the Genesis Apocryphon. It’s written in Aramaic near a time and place where Jesus supposedly lived. It includes a re-write of Genesis from first-person perspectives of Noah and Abraham.

Here’s Noah …

Column 6
Then, I Noah became a man that clung to truth and seized... I took Amzara, his daughter as my wife. She conceived and bore me three sons and daughters. I Then took wives from my brother's family for my sons, and I gave my daughters to my nephews according to the law of the eternal precept which Most High ordained to the sons of man ...

And here’s Abraham …

Column 19
I, Abraham built and alter (at Bethel) and called to god, praising him. I then went to the Holy Mountain and to Hebron where he lived for two years. Because there was famine in the land my family and I traveled to Egypt where grain was plentiful. I went across the branches of the Nile to enter Egypt, the land of the sons of Ham. I had a dream about a cedar tree and a date-palm tree …

Do you see how colorful this is? Do you see how creative the author was? He was rewriting Genesis with complete abandonment.

Was this part of a conspiracy theory? :devil:

Was the author trying to trick someone? :devil:

Do you admit that a conspiracy is not necessary in order to motivate someone to write outrageous stories based on characters in the OT?

Very interesting. And yes, colorful. Almost like schoolboy retelllings written secretly during detention....

I can't tell from your questions, however, what you are claiming with these. Could you change from questions to suggestions, please?

Loomis · 12-29-2009, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larkin31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Get a load of the Genesis Apocryphon. It’s written in Aramaic near a time and place where Jesus supposedly lived. It includes a re-write of Genesis from first-person perspectives of Noah and Abraham.

Here’s Noah …

Column 6
Then, I Noah became a man that clung to truth and seized... I took Amzara, his daughter as my wife. She conceived and bore me three sons and daughters. I Then took wives from my brother's family for my sons, and I gave my daughters to my nephews according to the law of the eternal precept which Most High ordained to the sons of man ...

And here’s Abraham …

Column 19
I, Abraham built and alter (at Bethel) and called to god, praising him. I then went to the Holy Mountain and to Hebron where he lived for two years. Because there was famine in the land my family and I traveled to Egypt where grain was plentiful. I went across the branches of the Nile to enter Egypt, the land of the sons of Ham. I had a dream about a cedar tree and a date-palm tree …

Do you see how colorful this is? Do you see how creative the author was? He was rewriting Genesis with complete abandonment.

Was this part of a conspiracy theory? :devil:

Was the author trying to trick someone? :devil:

Do you admit that a conspiracy is not necessary in order to motivate someone to write outrageous stories based on characters in the OT?

Very interesting. And yes, colorful. Almost like schoolboy retelllings written secretly during detention....

I can't tell from your questions, however, what you are claiming with these. Could you change from questions to suggestions, please?

Do you think the author of the Genesis Apocryphon (1QapGen) expected (or even wanted) his readers to believe that Noah and Abraham actually wrote those texts? (Y/N)

Loomis · 12-29-2009, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larkin31

Could you change from questions to suggestions, please?

No.

Just answer them honestly the best way you can.

Loomis · 12-29-2009, 08:24 PM

Do you think the author of the Genesis Apocryphon (1QapGen) expected (or even wanted) his readers to believe that Noah and Abraham actually wrote those texts? (Y/N)

Loomis · 12-29-2009, 08:32 PM

Perhaps you need to research this compelling issue.

I’ll check back again tomorrow.

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12-29-2009, 08:24 PM	#479
Loomis Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: The recesses of Zaphon Posts: 969	Do you think the author of the Genesis Apocryphon (1QapGen) expected (or even wanted) his readers to believe that Noah and Abraham actually wrote those texts? (Y/N)

12-29-2009, 08:32 PM	#480
Loomis Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: The recesses of Zaphon Posts: 969	Perhaps you need to research this compelling issue. I’ll check back again tomorrow.

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