sotto voce

Indeed. So Abram had not believed the promise until then. And when he did, he was accounted righteous. By his faith.

Unless Abram was a conceited, selfish man, and finally thought his deity was ok when he got what he wanted. In which case, there has to be wonder why deity is such a sucker as to indulge people like Abram, and why there is a Bible at all.


So, dear reader, take your pick. Justification is by faith, or the moon is made of Roquefort.

Sheshbazzar

Perhaps you hadn't noticed? Abram had NOT yet 'got what he wanted' in Genesis 15:6. He didn't even yet have a single child.

But accounting Yahweh his Elohim rightous to perform his Promises, Abram confidently waited and expected a coming fulfillment.

One which was partially fulfilled in the birth of Isaac in his old age, but will only be fully fulfilled when all of the nations at the last will finally say;
'OUR father Abraham....'

sotto voce

That's why he was considered righteous!

:banghead:

Onias

While you wait to acquire the Commentary of Ramban, here is an extensive discussion of Gen 15:6
http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/books/...nesis-156.html

outhouse

Thats one opinion. Is it the one you follow?

Onias

Note that Nehemiah praises God for his righteousness in fulfilling the promises made to Abram just as Abram praised the righteousness of God for promising them in Gen 15;6.


Neh 9:7 Thou [art] the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;


Neh 9:8 And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give [it, I say], to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou [art] righteous:

Onias

Yes, but do you? Have you even had the time to read it carefully and reflect upon it. . . to check references, etc., or have you made a snap judgment?

sotto voce

True. Though of course, Nehemiah didn't tell the whole story, did he. Nothing like it. See Jer 31:31-34.

Steady on, let's get this correct. After all, if those fiendishly clever casuistic Jesuits, in several centuries of concentrated effort, couldn't extract justification by works out of this, who on earth could?

Or, clearly presented:

'"You are the Lord God, who chose Abram and brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans and named him Abraham. You found his heart faithful to you."' Ne 9:7-8 NIV

So it was the Lord God who was finally pleased with Abram, not pompous idiot Abram who condescendingly found the Lord God adequate, after finally believing him (which would be a tell-tale bit of irrational free thought, don't you think?). And it was Abram who got a change of name, not the Lord God.

No wonder those cunning Jesuits never even tried to work their way round this one.

Sheshbazzar

So that's where you came up with that bass-akwards mistranslation and misreading that you presented in Post #8.

I have already carefully parsed the Hebrew text and demonstrated that your 'translator' has pulled a fast one on you and actually slipped in a 'he' where one was not,
and eliminated the 'he' where one actually is. His 'translation' is incorrect, as are his conclusions.

With this piss-poor, sloppy, and dishonest level of scholarship why in the hell should anyone pay any attention to rest of the perverted garbage that he offers?
What the hell good are 'impeccable credentials' when he presents and argues from such a glaring perversion of the actual Hebrew text?
If he were actually translating from the Hebrew text rather than making up shit to fit his views he would have translated the verse correctly.

outhouse

Yes. researched for a day or two before I posted


Quite a few different takes on it.


Genesis is such a evolved piece being do fragmented changing over time, its very tough to try and compare anything from Pauls imagination. To the imgaination of the multiple authors of Genesis.


Its almost better to ask what time period of Genesis do you want to compare.