Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sotto voce · 02-01-2013, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Since I have for many years been distrustful of Paul's quotes of Tanakh scripture

<edit>

Quote:

Paul relied upon a mistranslation of Genesis 15:6 in the Greek Septuagint

How is that known?

Quote:

Twice, Paul quotes from the Septuagint

That proves nothing at all.

Let's not dig up and fling free internet shit here, Onias. Let's not merely repeat proven shit, Onias. That's for demagogues. Let's deal with the questions posed and the objections made here.

<edit>.

I am not a demogogue

Then re-join the debate.

In Nehemiah, fulfilment of the promise to Abraham was effected 'because you are righteous'. There is no adjudication of deity here, but praise for evidence of what is already assumed to be truth. The words 'thou art' do not convince the scholar into confusing cause with effect. So what one really needs is the same construction of accounting God righteous as is claimed in Ge 15:6. Same verb, same adjective. Is it ever the case that God is adjudged righteous? Or is that an idea that never enters the minds of Abraham and his descendants, as has been suggested here?

sotto voce · 02-01-2013, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Quote:

Did anyone twist their arms to make them capitalize that 'He' in this verse?

Yes, of course you must realize the Jews of Europe were under the control of the Roman Church, and the Church could not allow an interpretation of Gen 15:6 that undermined Romans 4:3 and Paul's 'justification by faith' theology, one of the primary theologies of Xianity.

<edit>

Sheshbazzar · 02-01-2013, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Quote:

Did anyone twist their arms to make them capitalize that 'He' in this verse?

Yes, of course you must realize the Jews of Europe were under the control of the Roman Church, and the Church could not allow an interpretation of Gen 15:6 that undermined Romans 4:3 and Paul's 'justification by faith' theology, one of the primary theologies of Xianity.

The 'Jewish Publishing Society of America' Bible was not published until 1917.
And the Roman Church certainly did not hold such power over Jewish publications in America at that late date.

Onias · 02-01-2013, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Since I have for many years been distrustful of Paul's quotes of Tanakh scripture

<edit>

Quote:

Paul relied upon a mistranslation of Genesis 15:6 in the Greek Septuagint

How is that known?

Quote:

Twice, Paul quotes from the Septuagint

That proves nothing at all.

Let's not dig up and fling free internet shit here, Onias. Let's not merely repeat proven shit, Onias. That's for demagogues. Let's deal with the questions posed and the objections made here.

<edit>.

I am not a demogogue

Then re-join the debate.

In Nehemiah, fulfilment of the promise to Abraham was effected 'because you are righteous'. There is no adjudication of deity here, but praise for evidence of what is already assumed to be truth. The words 'thou art' do not convince the scholar into confusing cause with effect. So what one really needs is the same construction of accounting God righteous as is claimed in Ge 15:6. Same verb, same adjective. Is it ever the case that God is adjudged righteous? Or is that an idea that never enters the minds of Abraham and his descendants, as has been suggested here?

I have never left the debate for more than a day or two.

There are many cases of humans calling God righteous in the Tanakh other than in Genesis and Nehemiah. Were you not aware of that?

Onias · 02-01-2013, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Quote:

Did anyone twist their arms to make them capitalize that 'He' in this verse?

Yes, of course you must realize the Jews of Europe were under the control of the Roman Church, and the Church could not allow an interpretation of Gen 15:6 that undermined Romans 4:3 and Paul's 'justification by faith' theology, one of the primary theologies of Xianity.

The Jewish Publishing Society Bible was not published until 1917.
And the Roman Church certainly did not hold such power over Jewish publications at that late date.

That's true, but they continue to accept the views of the 'centuries old' views of the Jewish sages like Rashi who were under the control of the RCC. And the persecution of the Jews continues (remember Hitler?), so perhaps it is still wise not to annoy the Xian establishment.

semiopen · 02-01-2013, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Since I have for many years been distrustful of Paul's quotes of Tanakh scripture, I had suspicions about Gen 15:6 long before reading other material that supported my view. Usinng 'word searches' it is rather easy to research words and ideas that appear throughout the bible. But if I am not expressing myself clearly, here is a source (from an anti-Paulinist Xian) that may be more clear.

Excerpt from:

http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/books/...nesis-156.html

Quote:

Frequent Mention In Scripture Of the Righteousness Of God

Ramban’s and the Mekilta’s view of Genesis 15:6 fits well with the many passages where the psalmist gives a praise for God’s righteousness. That’s all Abraham was doing in Genesis 15:6. He was simply reckoning the promise from God as more proof of the righteousness of God.

One example is Psalm 7:17: “I will give to the LORD the thanks due to his righteousness, and I will sing praise to the name of the LORD, the Most High.” (See also Ps 5:7-8; 22:30-31; 31:1; 35: 28; 26:5-6,10; 40:11; 51:13-15; 69:27; 71:14-15a, 18b-19, 24; 88:12; 143:1,11).

Also, Ramban’s view matches how God speaks often of His own righteousness: “I will uphold you with the right hand of my righteousness.” (Isaiah 41:10.)

Most important, Ramban’s reading fits both Micah’s and Nehemiah’s depiction of God’s “faithfulness” and “steadfast love” and “righteousness” toward Abraham. This then makes sense of Genesis 15:6 as merely Abraham praising God for the same trait which is prophetically recognized.

Thus, first we read in Micah: “Who is a God like thee, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression?... Thou wilt show faithfulness to Jacob and steadfast love to Abraham, as thou hast sworn to our fathers from the days of old.” (Micah 7:18-20.) God will show righteousness to the sons.

Lastly, we read in Nehemiah, this account of God’s dealing with Abraham:

Thou art Jehovah the God, who didst choose Abram, and... gavest him the name of Abraham, (8) and foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanite,...., to give it unto his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous. (Neh 9:7-8 ASV.)

The pattern is identical between Genesis 15:6, Micah and Nehemiah: there is mention of the promise of seed to Abraham which is then followed by praise of God as “faithful,” having “steadfast love” and He is “righteous.” Thus, it makes perfect sense that Genesis 15:6 is saying Abraham believed God about the promise and then he (Abraham) reckoned it to Him (God) as righteousness.
Similarly, the Apocryphal book of Jubilees has a reference to Abraham as the recipient of God’s righteousness. It follows the normal Hebrew structure of Genesis 15:6 that Hamilton noted. However, this time, there is no room to argue. The text reads: “And Isaac blessed the God of his father Abraham, who had not withdrawn his mercy and his righteousness from the sons of his servant Isaac.” Pastor/Professor Gaston interprets this to mean “Abraham and his seed were the recipients of God’s righteousness.”59

All these commentaries and scriptural references simply repeat what the textual evidence and grammar dictates is the meaning of Genesis 15:6. Abraham was noting God’s righteousness. There was nothing more profound in the passage than that. Hence, it was never a passage having anything to do with God’s imputing any righteousness to Abraham.

The link you give is not an unbiased analysis, it takes a prior position and tries to justify it.

For example,

Quote:

All these commentaries and scriptural references simply repeat what the textual evidence and grammar dictates is the meaning of Genesis 15:6. Abraham was noting God’s righteousness.

The grammar supports the opposite as I and Shesh have pointed out above. Certainly the discussion doesn't have to end on that note but why is there a necessity to only present one side of the story not to mention lie.?

The same is true about the discussion of Jewish opinion.

Quote:

Jewish Scholars Concur On Genesis 15:6

Once again a blatant misstatement of fact, a lie. As the article I cited above notes, [Ancient] Jewish Scholars were divided on this. The link doesn't even bother to mention that.

The link and its examples don't consider the differences between Tsedek and Tsedaka that I mentioned previously backed up by Moshe Anbar.

The first part of Ramban's analysis discusses Rashi's opinion. This is because Rashi preceded Ramban and has more weight. One would think that the Xian guy might have learned the meaning of class from this.

Ramban also brings up Psalms 106:31 which your source doesn't mention but which I quoted from Dr. Anbar's article

וַיַּעֲמֹ֣ד פִּֽ֭ינְחָס וַיְפַלֵּ֑ל וַ֜תֵּעָצַ֗ר הַמַּגֵּפָֽה׃
(Psa 106:30 WTT)
וַתֵּחָ֣שֶׁב ל֭וֹ לִצְדָקָ֑ה לְדֹ֥ר וָ֜דֹ֗ר עַד־עוֹלָֽם׃
(Psa 106:31 WTT)

Phinehas stepped forth and intervened, and the plague ceased. (Psa 106:30 TNK)
And that was counted unto him for righteousness, unto all generations for ever.
(Psa 106:31 JPS)

Ramban isn't easy to follow (at least for me) but here we have identical wording applied to a man.

Personally, if I see lies like in your link, I tend not to give the material much credence. Granted he may have simplified his message somewhat to avoid confusing the Christians, but the whole thing - going on to the Yoshke part seems contrived to say the least.

sotto voce · 02-01-2013, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Since I have for many years been distrustful of Paul's quotes of Tanakh scripture

<edit>

Quote:

Paul relied upon a mistranslation of Genesis 15:6 in the Greek Septuagint

How is that known?

Quote:

Twice, Paul quotes from the Septuagint

That proves nothing at all.

Let's not dig up and fling free internet shit here, Onias. Let's not merely repeat proven shit, Onias. That's for demagogues. Let's deal with the questions posed and the objections made here.

<edit>.

I am not a demogogue

Then re-join the debate.

In Nehemiah, fulfilment of the promise to Abraham was effected 'because you are righteous'. There is no adjudication of deity here, but praise for evidence of what is already assumed to be truth. The words 'thou art' do not convince the scholar into confusing cause with effect. So what one really needs is the same construction of accounting God righteous as is claimed in Ge 15:6. Same verb, same adjective. Is it ever the case that God is adjudged righteous? Or is that an idea that never enters the minds of Abraham and his descendants, as has been suggested here?

I have never left the debate for more than a day or two.

There are many cases of humans calling God righteous in the Tanakh other than in Genesis and Nehemiah. Were you not aware of that?

I think every reader must by now be aware that the debate cannot continue until the same construction of accounting God righteous as is claimed in Ge 15:6 is found elsewhere.

Onias · 02-01-2013, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Since I have for many years been distrustful of Paul's quotes of Tanakh scripture, I had suspicions about Gen 15:6 long before reading other material that supported my view. Usinng 'word searches' it is rather easy to research words and ideas that appear throughout the bible. But if I am not expressing myself clearly, here is a source (from an anti-Paulinist Xian) that may be more clear.

Excerpt from:

http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/books/...nesis-156.html

Quote:

Frequent Mention In Scripture Of the Righteousness Of God

Ramban’s and the Mekilta’s view of Genesis 15:6 fits well with the many passages where the psalmist gives a praise for God’s righteousness. That’s all Abraham was doing in Genesis 15:6. He was simply reckoning the promise from God as more proof of the righteousness of God.

One example is Psalm 7:17: “I will give to the LORD the thanks due to his righteousness, and I will sing praise to the name of the LORD, the Most High.” (See also Ps 5:7-8; 22:30-31; 31:1; 35: 28; 26:5-6,10; 40:11; 51:13-15; 69:27; 71:14-15a, 18b-19, 24; 88:12; 143:1,11).

Also, Ramban’s view matches how God speaks often of His own righteousness: “I will uphold you with the right hand of my righteousness.” (Isaiah 41:10.)

Most important, Ramban’s reading fits both Micah’s and Nehemiah’s depiction of God’s “faithfulness” and “steadfast love” and “righteousness” toward Abraham. This then makes sense of Genesis 15:6 as merely Abraham praising God for the same trait which is prophetically recognized.

Thus, first we read in Micah: “Who is a God like thee, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression?... Thou wilt show faithfulness to Jacob and steadfast love to Abraham, as thou hast sworn to our fathers from the days of old.” (Micah 7:18-20.) God will show righteousness to the sons.

Lastly, we read in Nehemiah, this account of God’s dealing with Abraham:

Thou art Jehovah the God, who didst choose Abram, and... gavest him the name of Abraham, (8) and foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanite,...., to give it unto his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous. (Neh 9:7-8 ASV.)

The pattern is identical between Genesis 15:6, Micah and Nehemiah: there is mention of the promise of seed to Abraham which is then followed by praise of God as “faithful,” having “steadfast love” and He is “righteous.” Thus, it makes perfect sense that Genesis 15:6 is saying Abraham believed God about the promise and then he (Abraham) reckoned it to Him (God) as righteousness.
Similarly, the Apocryphal book of Jubilees has a reference to Abraham as the recipient of God’s righteousness. It follows the normal Hebrew structure of Genesis 15:6 that Hamilton noted. However, this time, there is no room to argue. The text reads: “And Isaac blessed the God of his father Abraham, who had not withdrawn his mercy and his righteousness from the sons of his servant Isaac.” Pastor/Professor Gaston interprets this to mean “Abraham and his seed were the recipients of God’s righteousness.”59

All these commentaries and scriptural references simply repeat what the textual evidence and grammar dictates is the meaning of Genesis 15:6. Abraham was noting God’s righteousness. There was nothing more profound in the passage than that. Hence, it was never a passage having anything to do with God’s imputing any righteousness to Abraham.

The link you give is not an unbiased analysis, it takes a prior position and tries to justify it.

For example,

Quote:

All these commentaries and scriptural references simply repeat what the textual evidence and grammar dictates is the meaning of Genesis 15:6. Abraham was noting God’s righteousness.

The grammar supports the opposite as I and Shesh have pointed out above. Certainly the discussion doesn't have to end on that note but why is there a necessity to only present one side of the story not to mention lie.?

The same is true about the discussion of Jewish opinion.

Quote:

Jewish Scholars Concur On Genesis 15:6

Once again a blatant misstatement of fact, a lie. As the article I cited above notes, [Ancient] Jewish Scholars were divided on this. The link doesn't even bother to mention that.

The link and its examples don't consider the differences between Tsedek and Tsedaka that I mentioned previously backed up by Moshe Anbar.

The first part of Ramban's analysis discusses Rashi's opinion. This is because Rashi preceded Ramban and has more weight. One would think that the Xian guy might have learned the meaning of class from this.

Ramban also brings up Psalms 106:31 which your source doesn't mention but which I quoted from Dr. Anbar's article

וַיַּעֲמֹ֣ד פִּֽ֭ינְחָס וַיְפַלֵּ֑ל וַ֜תֵּעָצַ֗ר הַמַּגֵּפָֽה׃
(Psa 106:30 WTT)
וַתֵּחָ֣שֶׁב ל֭וֹ לִצְדָקָ֑ה לְדֹ֥ר וָ֜דֹ֗ר עַד־עוֹלָֽם׃
(Psa 106:31 WTT)

Phinehas stepped forth and intervened, and the plague ceased. (Psa 106:30 TNK)
And that was counted unto him for righteousness, unto all generations for ever.
(Psa 106:31 JPS)

Ramban isn't easy to follow (at least for me) but here we have identical wording applied to a man.

Personally, if I see lies like in your link, I tend not to give the material much credence. Granted he may have simplified his message somewhat to avoid confusing the Christians, but the whole thing - going on to the Yoshke part seems contrived to say the least.

Regarding:

Quote:

Phinehas stepped forth and intervened, and the plague ceased. (Psa 106:30 TNK)
And that was counted unto him for righteousness, unto all generations for ever.
(Psa 106:31 JPS)

This is not relevant to Gen 15:6 because the only controversy in Gen 15:6 is the second phrase "and he accounted it to him as righteousness". Do you see that phrase in Psalm 106:30? Phinehas is the obvious subject in Psalms 106:30, and by the way, his actions (or works) are being accounted as righteous and not his faith or belief in God.

Onias · 02-01-2013, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Since I have for many years been distrustful of Paul's quotes of Tanakh scripture

<edit>

Quote:

Paul relied upon a mistranslation of Genesis 15:6 in the Greek Septuagint

How is that known?

Quote:

Twice, Paul quotes from the Septuagint

That proves nothing at all.

Let's not dig up and fling free internet shit here, Onias. Let's not merely repeat proven shit, Onias. That's for demagogues. Let's deal with the questions posed and the objections made here.

<edit>.

I am not a demogogue

Then re-join the debate.

In Nehemiah, fulfilment of the promise to Abraham was effected 'because you are righteous'. There is no adjudication of deity here, but praise for evidence of what is already assumed to be truth. The words 'thou art' do not convince the scholar into confusing cause with effect. So what one really needs is the same construction of accounting God righteous as is claimed in Ge 15:6. Same verb, same adjective. Is it ever the case that God is adjudged righteous? Or is that an idea that never enters the minds of Abraham and his descendants, as has been suggested here?

I have never left the debate for more than a day or two.

There are many cases of humans calling God righteous in the Tanakh other than in Genesis and Nehemiah. Were you not aware of that?

I think every reader must by now be aware that the debate cannot continue until the same construction of accounting God righteous as is claimed in Ge 15:6 is found elsewhere.

It doesn't have to be identical wording to prove that many other Jews called God righteous. David called God righteous many times.

Ps 5:7-8; 22:30-31; 31:1; 35: 28; 26:5-6,10; 40:11; 51:13-15; 69:27; 71:14-15a, 18b-19, 24; 88:12; 143:1,11

sotto voce · 02-01-2013, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

This is not relevant to Gen 15:6 because the only controversy in Gen 15:6 is the second phrase "and he accounted it to him as righteousness". Do you see that phrase in Psalm 106:30? Phinehas is the obvious subject in Psalms 106:30, and by the way, his actions (or works) are being accounted as righteous and not his faith or belief in God.

Who accounted him righteous?

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