Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Malachi151 · 10-17-2006, 10:54 AM

douglas: Glad that you are exploring these issues. By all means don't take my word on things. Its good to look at a variety of sources. Right now, acutally, there is a whole lot of scholarship going on and the picture of these religions changing rapidly, at least if you pay attention to the latest scholarship.

This is based on the fact that a lot of new high quality archeology has taken place in the past 30 years, and several older texts have been found, etc.

The Middle East was very much a pressure cooker of religious ideas, as it is where east met west.

I have an article on "The Jesus Myth" on my website:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...jesus_myth.htm

Actually I don't think that article is that good anymore, but it at least has some nice pictures.

I don't buy the argument put forward in The Jesus Puzzle, but he does give decent information. I prefer Robert Prices' work myself, The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man. I think that book is excellent. I learned a plain and simple clear new fact on every page of that book.

gstafleu · 10-17-2006, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

dI don't buy the argument put forward in The Jesus Puzzle, but he does give decent information. I prefer Robert Prices' work myself, The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man. I think that book is excellent. I learned a plain and simple clear new fact on every page of that book.

Agreed, TISSOM is a great book. But perhaps unlike you I always think of it as complementary to TJP. TJP focuses on the development of the concept of Jesus, specifically the spiritual->human development. TISSOM focuses on what J is alleged to have said and done, once the concept was developed to the human stage.

Gerard

J-D · 10-17-2006, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

I disagree with that. I think that the NT gives quite a different view of God than the OT.

Can you back that up? Because I think that each of them contains more than one different view of God. When you talk about the 'OT view of God', are you taking into account, for example, Genesis, Joshua, Kings, Isaiah, Hosea, Jonah, Micah, Job, Ecclesiastes, Esther, and Daniel? They don't look like they're all talking about the same God to me. Similarly with the NT.

douglas · 10-17-2006, 06:02 PM

I've got some reading to do. (Curious. Neither book mentioned is available at my local library. Hmmmm?) I did enjoy reading Malachi151's article on the Jesus Myth. The pictures were interesting, especially the one of Pan chasing the Shepard.

In the meantime, are there examples of actual ancient people who's persona was merged with mystical figures over time? These would be just ordinary people who did or said something cool, but through oral transmission of their "story", were given supernatural, God-like powers? It seems logical to me that this could happen, but I'm curious if there's any proof that it actually did. Did the "mixing pot" work in this way?

Malachi151 · 10-17-2006, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Can you back that up? Because I think that each of them contains more than one different view of God. When you talk about the 'OT view of God', are you taking into account, for example, Genesis, Joshua, Kings, Isaiah, Hosea, Jonah, Micah, Job, Ecclesiastes, Esther, and Daniel? They don't look like they're all talking about the same God to me. Similarly with the NT.

That's what I'm saying, the OT gives many different views of God, most of them violent really, whereas the NT has a more consistent view of God, which should not be a suprize, since the OT was written by hundreds of people (or at least dozens) over a period of hundreds of years, whereas the NT was written over a period of about 50-100 years, by a handful of people who had a more similar view of what they were talking about.

The NT is essentially 1 story, the OT is like 500 stories

LanternBearer · 10-17-2006, 06:31 PM

Once we can get the acretions of Greco-Roman statist myth, Father God-Mars removed, maybe we can get back on the simple track of treat others well even if they have treated you poorly.

Anything any more complicated is committe work or a contract consulting team.

I don't wish to seem the boomb (it works, I'll leave it.) dropper but I have a custard on the simmer.

Lantern Bearer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Yes, in many ways actually. Judaism is a religion and culture that was actually very highly influenced by outside cultures and religions. "Christianity" and "Islam" are two varients of Judaism that were so influenced by outside cultures that they comepltely split away from the core.

You can see in Judaism, first the polytheism, then the transition to singular tribal gods, then to monotheism.

Almost all of the Jewish mythical figures, such as Moses, Samson, Elijha, etc., can be traced back to previous god of other cultures, which became integrated into the Jewish pantheon as gods, and then transformed into mortal heroes.

Samson is the best known example of a Jewish mythic figure whose story comes from the Babylonian Sun God. Samson's name literally means "of the sun" in Hebrew. His mythology mirrors the mythology of the Babylonain sun god.

The same with Moses most likely. Moses was also probably a sun god in Jewish mythology at first, who became transformed into a human leader. This is probably why Moses was described by the Jews as having rays of light coming out of his head, which became mistranslated as horned by Greeks, leading to the images of "horned Moses".

Also, we have the concept of afterlife that evolved among the Jews, eventually leading in part to the split of Christianity.

Judaism origionally had no afterlife belief, hence the reason that the first 5 books of the Hebrew Bible depict all of God's punishments and rewards being dealt immediately in the present tense on earth.

As the Jews mingled with the Egyptians and Greeks, however, they slowly adopted some afterlife belief, the culmination of which was Christianity, which adopted the Greek Hades/Tartarus as hell (even with its description of the lake of fire).

So yes, you can very clearly see the building of ideas in Christianity if you study it.

J-D · 10-17-2006, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

That's what I'm saying, the OT gives many different views of God, most of them violent really, whereas the NT has a more consistent view of God, which should not be a suprize, since the OT was written by hundreds of people (or at least dozens) over a period of hundreds of years, whereas the NT was written over a period of about 50-100 years, by a handful of people who had a more similar view of what they were talking about.

The NT is essentially 1 story, the OT is like 500 stories

Can you back up the assertion that 'most' of the OT views of God are violent? I know some of them are, but I'm not convinced of 'most'. And I definitely don't know of anywhere in the OT where God is as violent as in the NT book of Revelation.

Malachi151 · 10-18-2006, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Can you back up the assertion that 'most' of the OT views of God are violent? I know some of them are, but I'm not convinced of 'most'. And I definitely don't know of anywhere in the OT where God is as violent as in the NT book of Revelation.

Well I haven't done a statistical study, but I've read about 40% of the OT, and God is what I would call violent and bad in pretty much every single case. The people praise God, and God says that he is fair and just and loving and good, etc., but this is never really shown with deeds.

In all his actions he is punishing people, killing people, commanding the Jews to commit genocide, bringing wrath, etc. I can't think of any story really that shows God being kind and altruistic and helping people for the sake of improving their lives. Even when he helps the Jews in the OT, he does it by killing others.

In the NT, however, "God" isn't really so much a part of the story so much as Jesus is, and overal Jesus is a nice guy, though he has periods of what I would call bad judgement and violence. The book of Revelation is pretty much different, and yeah, its also a violent book, but its the exception to the NT rule.

gstafleu · 10-18-2006, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by douglas

In the meantime, are there examples of actual ancient people who's persona was merged with mystical figures over time?

The problem with that might be that the layer of myth is so thick that it is impossible to get at the real person beneath it (if any).

Having said that, let me try a few. Augustus? Of course there was an active attempt by him and his cronies (I think) to deify him, so that's maybe not quite it.

Kim Jong-Il? Same thing as with Augustus inside North Korea, I'd suspect. Plus a unreal amount of demonization outside North Korea.

Osama bin Ladn? Here we have a demonization well beyond the limits of reality. Or maybe IO should say Al Qaeda, the omnipresent bogeyman/organization.

Closer to home, how about Paris Hilton? I think that initially at least she was just famous for being famous. That probably goes for most celebrities: ordinary people who have been elevated to something unreal in the public mind.

Che Guevarra? He wasn't really a nice guy, but has reached hero status in some circles.

Fidel Castro? Seen as an ordinary leader in most of the world, but is a bogey man of mythical proportions in (some of) the US.

Gerard

LanternBearer · 10-18-2006, 02:45 PM

About a year ago when I was beginning my second 60 years, I was thinking - Lantern, you know enough Russian to get your face slapped in Gorky Park, enough Turkish to get a bus from Trabzon to Istanbul, enough Arabic to get a meal - what else is there? There is NT Greek. So I started that project. Then I became engaged in inter-linear modern and ancient Greek, which lead to approaching the Attic and Ionian classics. Of course the ADD kicks in and I find that Syriac and Aramaic takes in the Cosmos where the Greeks barely touched the visible planets. So I have completely cluttered two desks and a dining room table with that work.

All this lead me to become a regular in the rare books area of the five universities that are in my realm of local travel. I also have gained access to uncirculated material in the principal libraries in NYC, Boston and Philadelphia.

I have read a lot of unpublished research. I have read a lot of pre-1900 research. The volume of what is available and relatively untouched is astounding.

Out of this I have developed a view of the context and a minimal understanding of ancient thought that is now distilled into the current manifestations of sacred texts for all the major world religions and some of whom at the end of the inventory who get no current attention.

Until the outbreak of the mess in Mesopotamia, who knew of the religious expression that may have put John the Baptizer in the Roman Statist Canon. I am refering to the Mandeans. A very interesting sect.

To make a point. There is a whole lot more to study and digest than I will accomplish in my next 120 years. What has come down to us as gospel is but PR by way of committee and consultancy at the behest of Constantine and Mother Helena.

That is not to say that it can not be worthwhile. It just isn't the literal truth - it is spiritual messaging.

Oh. Yes, YWHW does seem like Mr. T. on a bad day.

This is true for me. Your POV may be different.

Lantern Bearer
Please, do be attentive, be intelligent, be reasonable, be responsible!

10-18-2006, 02:45 PM	#20
LanternBearer Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 26	OT God Nemisis About a year ago when I was beginning my second 60 years, I was thinking - Lantern, you know enough Russian to get your face slapped in Gorky Park, enough Turkish to get a bus from Trabzon to Istanbul, enough Arabic to get a meal - what else is there? There is NT Greek. So I started that project. Then I became engaged in inter-linear modern and ancient Greek, which lead to approaching the Attic and Ionian classics. Of course the ADD kicks in and I find that Syriac and Aramaic takes in the Cosmos where the Greeks barely touched the visible planets. So I have completely cluttered two desks and a dining room table with that work. All this lead me to become a regular in the rare books area of the five universities that are in my realm of local travel. I also have gained access to uncirculated material in the principal libraries in NYC, Boston and Philadelphia. I have read a lot of unpublished research. I have read a lot of pre-1900 research. The volume of what is available and relatively untouched is astounding. Out of this I have developed a view of the context and a minimal understanding of ancient thought that is now distilled into the current manifestations of sacred texts for all the major world religions and some of whom at the end of the inventory who get no current attention. Until the outbreak of the mess in Mesopotamia, who knew of the religious expression that may have put John the Baptizer in the Roman Statist Canon. I am refering to the Mandeans. A very interesting sect. To make a point. There is a whole lot more to study and digest than I will accomplish in my next 120 years. What has come down to us as gospel is but PR by way of committee and consultancy at the behest of Constantine and Mother Helena. That is not to say that it can not be worthwhile. It just isn't the literal truth - it is spiritual messaging. Oh. Yes, YWHW does seem like Mr. T. on a bad day. This is true for me. Your POV may be different. Lantern Bearer Please, do be attentive, be intelligent, be reasonable, be responsible!

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10-17-2006, 10:54 AM	#11
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	douglas: Glad that you are exploring these issues. By all means don't take my word on things. Its good to look at a variety of sources. Right now, acutally, there is a whole lot of scholarship going on and the picture of these religions changing rapidly, at least if you pay attention to the latest scholarship. This is based on the fact that a lot of new high quality archeology has taken place in the past 30 years, and several older texts have been found, etc. The Middle East was very much a pressure cooker of religious ideas, as it is where east met west. I have an article on "The Jesus Myth" on my website: http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...jesus_myth.htm Actually I don't think that article is that good anymore, but it at least has some nice pictures. I don't buy the argument put forward in The Jesus Puzzle, but he does give decent information. I prefer Robert Prices' work myself, The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man. I think that book is excellent. I learned a plain and simple clear new fact on every page of that book.

10-17-2006, 06:02 PM	#14
douglas Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 701	I've got some reading to do. (Curious. Neither book mentioned is available at my local library. Hmmmm?) I did enjoy reading Malachi151's article on the Jesus Myth. The pictures were interesting, especially the one of Pan chasing the Shepard. In the meantime, are there examples of actual ancient people who's persona was merged with mystical figures over time? These would be just ordinary people who did or said something cool, but through oral transmission of their "story", were given supernatural, God-like powers? It seems logical to me that this could happen, but I'm curious if there's any proof that it actually did. Did the "mixing pot" work in this way?

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