Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Rev. Timothy G. Muse · 09-23-2004, 08:17 AM

The posts on this thread reflect the relativism of today ... that there is no absolute truth (or that it cannot be faultlessly determined) and/or that each man is in charge of determining what he believes is truth, and determining his his own destiny. It leads to the false assumption that "it's okay for every man to hold his own views and wait to see what pans out in the end."

The problem with this thinking is that "God has made this Jesus ... both Lord and Christ." Now, I'm sure Atheists will respond "but that's your opinion and you have a right to it, just as we have a right not to believe it"; but the Bible confronts the idea of relativism and condemns it by stating that God has placed Jesus Christ on the throne. While atheists may argue that this is debatable, or moreso untrue, you ought to consider the warning found in Scripture that not only tells of those who will deny the truth, seek to cast off the bonds of Christ, display outright aggression not only toward God but even the thought of God, but in the end, receive their due reward.

Even evangelicals today begin at the wrong starting point, for when we proclaim to people "you need to be saved", it does not mean much unless the issue of Christ's rule and dominion is first addressed. Otherwise, athiests and everyone else are free to say "That's nice for you, but I don't think I need to be saved, or want to be saved." However, the Bible condemns such thinking by declaring that Christ Jesus (not the individual) is in charge! This is the message continually affirmed by the apostles. In Acts 2:16, Peter states "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." Jesus himself states in Matthew 28:18 "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

The truth is Scripture and prophesy pointed to Jesus as the coming Lord and Savior. Having been raised from the dead, he now sits enthroned above all.

Like on the day of Pentecost, not all will accept this message and some will even laugh and make fun (Acts 2:13); but just like through the early church, the kingdom of God will continue to be proclaimed, the ministry of Christ and the witness of his resurrection will be presented, many will come faith and salvation through repentace and confession, and the church of Christ will triumph even amidst various forms of opposition.

In light of reality, sinners, called by God "repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Christ (to you)." (Acts 3:19-20)

Dean Anderson · 09-23-2004, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Timothy G. Muse

So - to sum up your post...

"You atheists are all wrong because the Bible says so."

Prester John · 09-23-2004, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Timothy G. Muse

The posts on this thread reflect the relativism of today ... that there is no absolute truth (or that it cannot be faultlessly determined) and/or that each man is in charge of determining what he believes is truth, and determining his his own destiny. It leads to the false assumption that "it's okay for every man to hold his own views and wait to see what pans out in the end."

So you think it is bad for people to hold their own views. Rather they should accept what they are taught by you and your interpretation of the Bible? And this is good ? How do we know you have the right intepretation, or its even Yahweh thats the correct omni being.

Being Athiest i'm quite happy to think of the bible as a poor LOTR.

DNAinaGoodway · 09-23-2004, 08:30 AM

No thanks Rev. Muse, I'd rather go to hell.

Your mind virus is especially strong in you, so I expect you will never be cured of it.

I think you probably mean well, but even a benign virus can mutate into a more dangerous strain.

Mageth · 09-23-2004, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Timothy G. Muse

The posts on this thread reflect the relativism of today ... that there is no absolute truth (or that it cannot be faultlessly determined) and/or that each man is in charge of determining what he believes is truth, and determining his his own destiny.

If I'm not in charge of determining what I believe is true, who is?

Quote:

It leads to the false assumption that "it's okay for every man to hold his own views and wait to see what pans out in the end."

Why is that a "false assumption"? The opposite of that would be that it's not OK for every person to hold their own views. :huh:

Quote:

The problem with this thinking is that "God has made this Jesus ... both Lord and Christ." Now, I'm sure Atheists will respond "but that's your opinion and you have a right to it, just as we have a right not to believe it"; but the Bible confronts the idea of relativism and condemns it by stating that God has placed Jesus Christ on the throne. While atheists may argue that this is debatable, or moreso untrue, you ought to consider the warning found in Scripture that not only tells of those who will deny the truth, seek to cast off the bonds of Christ, display outright aggression not only toward God but even the thought of God, but in the end, receive their due reward.

Yeah, but you see, that's all part of that stuff we lack belief in. If I lack belief in God and in "Jesus Christ on the throne", then a "warning found in Scripture" is hardly going to scare me.

Quote:

Even evangelicals today begin at the wrong starting point, for when we proclaim to people "you need to be saved", it does not mean much unless the issue of Christ's rule and dominion is first addressed. Otherwise, athiests and everyone else are free to say "That's nice for you, but I don't think I need to be saved, or want to be saved."

Why shouldn't I be free to say that????

Quote:

However, the Bible condemns such thinking by declaring that Christ Jesus (not the individual) is in charge!

That's right! How dare anyone presume they have the right to think for themselves???

Quote:

This is the message continually affirmed by the apostles. In Acts 2:16, Peter states "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." Jesus himself states in Matthew 28:18 "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

More stuff that we lack belief in. Get it?

Quote:

The truth is Scripture and prophesy pointed to Jesus as the coming Lord and Savior. Having been raised from the dead, he now sits enthroned above all.

Like on the day of Pentecost, not all will accept this message and some will even laugh and make fun (Acts 2:13); but just like through the early church, the kingdom of God will continue to be proclaimed, the ministry of Christ and the witness of his resurrection will be presented, many will come faith and salvation through repentace and confession, and the church of Christ will triumph even amidst various forms of opposition.

In light of reality, sinners, called by God "repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Christ (to you)." (Acts 3:19-20)

I simply can't figure out why so many Christians seem to assume that the Bible will carry any sort of weight when presented to atheists. :huh:

BTW, Rev, that was, um, a nice sermon, but preachin' ain't exactly kosher in this forum, mmkay?

Weltall · 09-23-2004, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Timothy G. Muse

The problem with this thinking is that "God has made this Jesus ... both Lord and Christ."

Extra-biblical evidence please? Start with proving the existence of this God fellow and work your way up.

Quote:

you ought to consider the warning found in Scripture that not only tells of those who will deny the truth, seek to cast off the bonds of Christ, display outright aggression not only toward God but even the thought of God, but in the end, receive their due reward.

Ahhh, another variation of the 'Believe or you go to Hell' approach to debate. Sorry, I am simply not capable of being frightened by something that I don't believe exists. Try threatening me with something more tangible.

Quote:

"That's nice for you, but I don't think I need to be saved, or want to be saved." However, the Bible condemns such thinking by declaring that Christ Jesus (not the individual) is in charge!

It must be really satisfying to people like you to know that you don't have to take responsibility for anything. Just surrender your mind to the Collective and all will be well.

Quote:

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

Sadly all knowledge was not given, seeing that he has problems with geography, botany, biology, physics, mathematics...

Quote:

The truth is Scripture and prophesy pointed to Jesus as the coming Lord and Savior. Having been raised from the dead, he now sits enthroned above all.

Unsupported assertion, but what else is new?

Quote:

In light of reality, sinners, called by God "repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Christ (to you)." (Acts 3:19-20)

Sorry, I've already got the IPU (PBUHHH).

ex-preacher · 09-23-2004, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Timothy G. Muse

In light of reality, sinners, called by God "repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Christ (to you)." (Acts 3:19-20)

And if you do not acknowledge Mohammed as God's prophet, Allah will send you to hell. But it's your choice.

Rev. Timothy G. Muse · 09-23-2004, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mageth

If I'm not in charge of determining what I believe is true, who is?

Why shouldn't I be free to say that?

The issue is NOT whether you have a right to think or say or believe what you want to; it's a matter of whether your thoughts or beliefs are best in light of the greater truth.

For example, as a father who is in a position and exercises authority over my children, ... they have the right on any given day or at any time to think or act or even believe that they are ultimately in control of their own decisions and destiny, but in the end, I will consider their choices and actions, and deal with them accordingly.

Sven · 09-23-2004, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Timothy G. Muse

The issue is NOT whether you have a right to think or say or believe what you want to; it's a matter of whether your thoughts or beliefs are best in light of the greater truth.

I suggest starting with a demonstration that this "greater truth" actually exists in the real world. In other words: Where's your f****** evidence?

Prester John · 09-23-2004, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Timothy G. Muse

The issue is NOT whether you have a right to think or say or believe what you want to; it's a matter of whether your thoughts or beliefs are best in light of the greater truth.

For example, as a father who is in a position and exercises authority over my children, ... they have the right on any given day or at any time to think or act or even believe that they are ultimately in control of their own decisions and destiny, but in the end, I will consider their choices and actions, and deal with them accordingly.

]

So how much back chat do your children have to give before you boil them alive (that will teach em) ?

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09-23-2004, 08:17 AM	#1
Rev. Timothy G. Muse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Brandon, Mississippi Posts: 1,892	The posts on this thread reflect the relativism of today ... that there is no absolute truth (or that it cannot be faultlessly determined) and/or that each man is in charge of determining what he believes is truth, and determining his his own destiny. It leads to the false assumption that "it's okay for every man to hold his own views and wait to see what pans out in the end." The problem with this thinking is that "God has made this Jesus ... both Lord and Christ." Now, I'm sure Atheists will respond "but that's your opinion and you have a right to it, just as we have a right not to believe it"; but the Bible confronts the idea of relativism and condemns it by stating that God has placed Jesus Christ on the throne. While atheists may argue that this is debatable, or moreso untrue, you ought to consider the warning found in Scripture that not only tells of those who will deny the truth, seek to cast off the bonds of Christ, display outright aggression not only toward God but even the thought of God, but in the end, receive their due reward. Even evangelicals today begin at the wrong starting point, for when we proclaim to people "you need to be saved", it does not mean much unless the issue of Christ's rule and dominion is first addressed. Otherwise, athiests and everyone else are free to say "That's nice for you, but I don't think I need to be saved, or want to be saved." However, the Bible condemns such thinking by declaring that Christ Jesus (not the individual) is in charge! This is the message continually affirmed by the apostles. In Acts 2:16, Peter states "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." Jesus himself states in Matthew 28:18 "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." The truth is Scripture and prophesy pointed to Jesus as the coming Lord and Savior. Having been raised from the dead, he now sits enthroned above all. Like on the day of Pentecost, not all will accept this message and some will even laugh and make fun (Acts 2:13); but just like through the early church, the kingdom of God will continue to be proclaimed, the ministry of Christ and the witness of his resurrection will be presented, many will come faith and salvation through repentace and confession, and the church of Christ will triumph even amidst various forms of opposition. In light of reality, sinners, called by God "repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Christ (to you)." (Acts 3:19-20)

09-23-2004, 08:30 AM	#4
DNAinaGoodway Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: 71d47m30sW 42d17m30sN Posts: 396	No thanks Rev. Muse, I'd rather go to hell. Your mind virus is especially strong in you, so I expect you will never be cured of it. I think you probably mean well, but even a benign virus can mutate into a more dangerous strain.

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