Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ted Hoffman · 02-13-2009, 03:48 AM

It is the same as the basis for the naked man fleeing.

Deus Ex · 02-13-2009, 04:51 AM

Mark 14:47 And one of them that stood by drew a sword, and smote a servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.

There you have it. Jesus was leading a group of armed zealots.

aa5874 · 02-13-2009, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Ex

Mark 14:47 And one of them that stood by drew a sword, and smote a servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.

There you have it. Jesus was leading a group of armed zealots.

This means the wrong man was crucified.

Vincent Guilbaud · 02-13-2009, 05:17 AM

To the question:
WHY would the Jews an Romans crucified Jesus in the Gospel?

aa5874 answered:

Quote:

So, if it is assumed that gMark is true, then Jesus would have shown through his prophesied crucifixion that the Jews killed the son of their own God, but he would triumph over death and resurrect.

aa5874, we are not looking for good reasons for a crucified Messiah,
according to Christian/Jewish theology,
BUT according to Jewish and Roman laws or 'rational' behaviors.

Deus Ex · 02-13-2009, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Ex

Mark 14:47 And one of them that stood by drew a sword, and smote a servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.

There you have it. Jesus was leading a group of armed zealots.

This means the wrong man was crucified.

They had to cut the head off of the snake.

dog-on · 02-13-2009, 05:26 AM

Funny no one mentioned the poor ear-less fellow during the trial...

Deus Ex · 02-13-2009, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Funny no one mentioned the poor ear-less fellow during the trial...

I wonder who the Court Reporter was that worked that trial?

Ben C Smith · 02-13-2009, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

If it is assumed that gMark is true, then Jesus did not really give much explanation to the disciples why he would or should be crucified.

Just for clarification, this thread does not assume that Mark is true in general. It assumes that the crucifixion happened, which vindicates one important element in Mark, but not necessarily the entire story from start to finish.

Ben.

Ben C Smith · 02-13-2009, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

I think the timing and location are important to any perceived sedition. Couldn't any of the above trouble-making have been considered seditious in Jerusalem during Passover?

Yes, I think so.

Quote:

Doesn't Josephus tell us about an apparent messianic claimant who got whacked because he was going to lead a bunch of people across the Jordan in a symbolic gesture?

That would be Theudas. It is important, I think, to read Josephus very carefully on some of these points. Some pretenders, like the Samaritan, he says actually armed his followers; I do not find it surprising that the Romans would act against this kind of movement. Other pretenders, however, Josephus does not say were armed (Theudas, for example). Maybe they were, anyway, but Josephus seems intent to blame as much as possible on the poor fools, so that he mentioned only their prophetic gestures may be very telling. IOW, Theudas was probably killed just for his demonstration and large following.

Ben.

aa5874 · 02-13-2009, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

If it is assumed that gMark is true, then Jesus did not really give much explanation to the disciples why he would or should be crucified.

Just for clarification, this thread does not assume that Mark is true in general. It assumes that the crucifixion happened, which vindicates one important element in Mark, but not necessarily the entire story from start to finish.

Ben.

So, can I not assume gMark is true? If not, what must I assume?

If it is assumed the crucifixion happened, then the pre and post-crucifixion events may also be assumed to be true in order to make other assumptions about the reason for the crucifixion.

Now, if it is assumed gMark is true, Jesus's crucifixion was predicted, and it would appear that Jesus choose a most gruesome manner of death, based on the details, to cause the onlookers to have pity on him and to regard those who crucified him as evil.

And this is further compounded, that is, the evil of those who crucified Jesus, when he was treated even worse than a known criminal, Barrabas.

But, his resurrection will show he was God and would eventually forgive their evil.

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02-13-2009, 03:48 AM	#21
Ted Hoffman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: "" Posts: 3,863	It is the same as the basis for the naked man fleeing.

02-13-2009, 04:51 AM	#22
Deus Ex Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,348	Mark 14:47 And one of them that stood by drew a sword, and smote a servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear. There you have it. Jesus was leading a group of armed zealots.

02-13-2009, 05:26 AM	#26
dog-on Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 3,397	Funny no one mentioned the poor ear-less fellow during the trial...

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