Bede

Thanks for those words of wisdom. They would be a little more effective if you weren't defending someone who 'likes to see' mass murder and if you had jumped in with the point about a historical vacuum when CJ first posted his silly list. At least I never felt the need to defend the activities of the inquisition, say the witches had it coming or praise Justinian as an enlightened ruler.

The fact is, Vork, you are right about the need for historical context but your coming in only now, when you have been silent throughout the discussion of Christian crimes, looks like blatant hypocracy. Also, because CJ doesn't believe in historical context (as his posts on Christian crimes unequivocally demonstrate), my criticisms of his monstrous stance are still fully justified.

Best wishes

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

Vorkosigan

I don't see how pointing out how slanted your presentation was amounts to defending CJ, but I am sure you will enlighten me.

I'd love to jump in on your side. I admire and am jealous of your knowledge and your easy familiarity with that complex history of those days long ago. It's not blatant hypocrisy but blatant ignorance that restrains me. I don't discuss the late Roman Empire/early middle ages because I don't know anything about it. I couldn't jump in for or against you or CJ. I didn't take a side in the Minicius Felix thread either, simply because I don't know enough. But nobody accused me of hypocrisy there.

Vorkosigan

Bede

That being so, I withdraw the accusation of hypocracy.

B

countjulian

Sigh. I never condoned the mass murders of preists during the Spanish civil war, but thanks for putting the words in my mouth (I wonder what else you would like to put in there?) The passage I was referring to in Homage to Catolonia says:
"This was in late December 1936, less than seven months ago as I write, and
yet it is a period that has already receded into enormous distance. Later events have obliterated it much more completely than they have obliterated 1935, or 1905, for that matter. I had come to Spain with some notion of writing newspaper articles, but I had joined the militia almost immediately, because at that time and in that atmosphere it seemed the only conceivable thing to do. The Anarchists were still in virtual control of Catalonia and the revolution was still in full swing. To anyone who had been there since the beginning it probably seemed even in December or January that the revolutionary period was ending; but when one came straight from England the aspect of Barcelona was something startling and overwhelming. It was the first time that I had ever been in a town where the working class was in the saddle. Practically every building of any size had been seized by the workers and was draped with red flags or with the red and black flag of the Anarchists; every wall was scrawled with the hammer and sickle and with the initials of the revolutionary parties; almost every church had been gutted and its images burnt. Churches here and there were being systematically demolished by gangs of workmen. Every shop and cafe had an
inscription saying that it had been collectivized; even the bootblacks had been collectivized and their boxes painted red and black. Waiters and shop-walkers looked you in the face and treated you as an equal. Servile and even ceremonial forms of speech had temporarily disappeared. Nobody said 'Senior' or 'Don' or even 'Usted'; everyone called everyone else 'Comrade' and 'Thou', and said 'Salud!' instead of 'Buenos dias'."-- Homage to Catalonia, chapter 1.
Excuse me, but where in that passage did you see a reference to preists being martyred for Christ? This is what happened: the revolution took over, people gave up their superstition, and they willingly and bloodlessly tore down their own churches. No doubt Spanish presists and Catholic laity did suffer persecution, but that is not what I was refering to. The passage from Catolonia is the type of destruction of superstition I want; not the destruction of the Serapaeum, where innocents were slaughtered and the object of their superstition destroyed against their will by force.

I have not time right now, but do I will dig up some of the letters of Ambrose to theodosius that way we can truly evauluate his affect of the temperance of Theodosius. More later.

Bede

This is the worst case of self delusion I have ever read on these boards. This shows you don't understand real world and I can no longer be bothered with you.

Best wishes

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

Toto

The Spanish Civil War is a bit too recent for this forum, but I think that if Bede is going to take such a nuanced view of the Inquisition, he can take a similar view of more recent history.

The Spanish Civil War was a bloody affair. The Vatican has recently canonized 7 priests and a nun as martyrs for the faith, but it seems clear that most of the priests killed were killed for political reasons, because they supported the fascist government or because they were actual combattants, not "faith."

Numbers killed citing statistics from FRANCO by Paul Preston Priests killed Priest killed in battle

Bede

Thanks Toto.

My point is and remains that Christians are not uniquely bad. By only jumping in here and not when CJ first posted his list, you are also acting like a hypocrit. As you know nothing about this subject beyond what you've gleaned from a web search, Vork's excuse doesn't apply to you. Nor does it help CJ who specifically approved the anti-religious actions that almost always involved murder. Finally, you should know that the Spanish Civil War is so recent that we still tend to romantise the Republicans (witness Orwell, Hemingway and Pinter to name a few) although they were every bit as bad as Franco and supported by Stalin who was every bit as bad a Hitler and much worse than Mussolini. You must therefore treat all academic sources with extreme caution - most are by lefties who cannot bring themselves to admit that the people they supported were as dreadful as their opponents.

The fact remains that 7,000 clergy were murdered by atheist republicans. Call it what you like but don't get on your moral high horse and ever accuse Christians of being criminals again unless you also state that they were no worse than anyone else, pagans atheists and freethinkers alike. Remember the anti-clerical near genocide of those freethinking Jacobins.

Best wishes

Bede

PS: At least two of your sources are worthless propaganda. Toto, when will you learn that you need to read books, not surf the net. I hope you will apologise for posting communist apologetics for mass murder.

Bede's Library - faith and reason

Toto

You're welcome

Or uniquely good? Perhaps Christianity is irrelevant?

My dear Bede, I jumped in and deleted countjulian's list as violating copyright. I only have so much time.

Hi Bede - I try to avoid these debates. Obviously a lot of Christians were criminals and have left a sorry history that does no credit to the redeeming power of Jesus Christ. But I know only too well that non-Christians are not much better.

And something is not necessarily worthless because it was written by a Communist. If we used that standard, we would have no sources for a lot of history, right?

I only pulled up a few online sources (citing real books) to counter your bald assertion that lots of priests died for their faith. I could have posted more. Do you deny that politics might have had more to do with it than faith?

Bede

Toto, that you found time to google and then jump in here but not previously means you are a hypocrite. So is CJ. That's one strike against atheists at least.

Best wishes

Bede

countjulian

More words in my mouth. Thank you, I can type. I love how you quoted me there, but failed to mention what I said afterward:
"No doubt Spanish presists(priests-sorry, I'm not a prefect spuller) and Catholic laity did suffer persecution, but that is not what I was refering to. The passage from Catolonia (which did not refer to a single soul dying) is the type of destruction of superstition I want" I never condoned the murder of priests that no doubt did go on. Also, you said

Excuse me Bede, I just looked at your website, and I have to ask: what exactly are your credentials on the Spanish Civil War? What books, if any, have you read on the subject? Funny thing is, if you have not read any books on the subject, than that would mean that Toto's "web search" gives him more expertise on the subject than you. Communist sources are no better than no sources at all. Just wondering, where did you get the info on the priests killed in the war? 7,000, if I do remember what you said. Not a worthless fascist Christian site, I hope. Oh, and by the way, why didn't you mention the Free Masons killed during and after the Civil War by Franco's church backed-fascists?
For another thing, people "romantise"[sic] the Republicans because, though they did some horrible things and many were commies, stood for elected government, while the Nationalists stood for un-elected fascism and in some case, monarchy (yes, I know, one man absolute rule is a tried and true Christian virtue, one God, one church, one king and all). In the end, the Republicans were in the right, although there were atrocities on both sides (and do remember the fascists started the war and were, in fact, the rebels, a fact we generallt tend to lose sight of because the Republicans were extreme left-wing, the "Revolution") I think, in the end, the Republicans were in the right, and, what's more, representing the views of most of the people.
Can we please get back on topic?