Freethought & Rationalism Archive

motorhead · 02-13-2007, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roller

Say a believer scholar thinks Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher. How such scholar reconciles his belief in Jesus as God with this? I'm sure there are warying degrees of "religiousity" that allow for such reconciliation. I don't see how you can reconcile it with a definition of a Christian as a believer in Nicene Creed.

Good question (good topic in general) and I've wondered the same. Just the other day I was looking at reader reviews on Amazon of a newer historical Jesus book by James D.G. Dunn (who I think is a believer). The reviewer mentioned that Dunn actually admitted in the book that Jesus was wrong about when the Kingdom would come.

First question that comes to mind is, then how is this man still a believer, at least in the traditional sense? How can you say Jesus is God when Jesus was wrong? Unless, your definition of God includes that God doesn't know all.

Here's a link to the book: Jesus Remembered (Christianity in the Making, Vol. 1) (or via: amazon.co.uk)

motorhead · 02-13-2007, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roller

Say a believer scholar thinks Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher. How such scholar reconciles his belief in Jesus as God with this? I'm sure there are warying degrees of "religiousity" that allow for such reconciliation. I don't see how you can reconcile it with a definition of a Christian as a believer in Nicene Creed.

Good question (good topic in general) and I've wondered the same. Just the other day I was looking at reader reviews on Amazon of a newer historical Jesus book by James D.G. Dunn (who I think is a believer). The reviewer mentioned that Dunn actually admitted in the book that Jesus was wrong about when the Kingdom would come.

First question that comes to mind is, then how is this man still a believer, at least in the traditional sense? How can you say Jesus is God when Jesus was wrong? Unless, your definition of God includes that God doesn't know all.

Here's a link to the book: http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Remember...dp/0802839312/

S.C.Carlson · 02-13-2007, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roller

Thanks for you answer. I hoped you would be one of the people replying to this thread. I'm not sure if early Q was non-eschatological. It sure seems to me that the early congregations (at least ones founded by Paul, including himself) were apocalyptic. But that’s a discussion for some other time.

Indeed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roller

Say a believer scholar thinks Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher. How such scholar reconciles his belief in Jesus as God with this? I'm sure there are warying degrees of "religiousity" that allow for such reconciliation. I don't see how you can reconcile it with a definition of a Christian as a believer in Nicene Creed.

I was going to mention Dale Allison as an example, but Loren already beat me to it.

Stephen

John Kesler · 02-13-2007, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roller

Hence the "God of Old Testament" in my sentence. Stories are contradictory, some are borrowed from other cultures, edited and then edited some more. One way, I suppose, would be to consider that God had no influence on Torah's composition. Any believers believe this?

I understood what you meant, but even so, the existence of Yahweh and Mosaic authorship of the Torah are not logically mutually exclusive. You may want to view this "paper," which attempts to logically disprove Yahweh's existence.

Malachi151 · 02-13-2007, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loren Rosson III

You have a rather anorexic view of Christian believers. Dale Allison is an example of a believer who believes that Jesus was mistaken about the end:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alliso...nar/message/41

"From one point of view, Jesus was wrong, because he took apocalyptic language literally and expected a near end. But he wasn't, from my Christian point of view, wrong in hoping for God to defeat evil, redeem the world, and hold us responsible. I continue to be amazed that we can't do with the end what we do with the beginning. We have become very sophisticated in our understanding of Genesis as mythology. It still serves us homiletically and theologically even after we've given up the literal sense. Why can't we do the same with eschatology? We can say that the writer of Genesis was mistaken about the beginning of the world -- it didn't take place a few thousand years ago, there was no Garden of Eden, etc -- but he wasn't wrong -- God made the world, the world is good, but responsible human beings wreck things. I just want to do this with eschatology. I emphasize Jesus was wrong so that I can get to what he was right about."

Hence his point. This doesn't make any sense. How can someone believe that "its all mythology", yet be a Christian? I don't see any sense to it.

Steven Carr · 02-13-2007, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loren Rosson III

You have a rather anorexic view of Christian believers. Dale Allison is an example of a believer who believes that Jesus was mistaken about the end:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alliso...nar/message/41

"From one point of view, Jesus was wrong, because he took apocalyptic language literally and expected a near end. But he wasn't, from my Christian point of view, wrong in hoping for God to defeat evil, redeem the world, and hold us responsible. "

Why was God the Son wrong about what God the Father had planned?

Bearing in mind that there is only one God.

Roller · 02-13-2007, 10:10 AM

Forums are little jerky today. Double posts (or in my case triple) abound

I can understand Genesis to be author(s) stuggle to understand the world and his attempt to explain how/why things came to be the way they are. I can appreciate that.

I can also understand Jesus' attempts to explain God's love for His creation. But that (in my limited understanding) just does not fit in Nicene creed. Christians are supposed to believe in Nicene creed (or something close to it). I'm not sure how Dave Allison can believe in Nicene creed.

If Jesus was wrong about the end times, doesn't that disqualify him as a prophet according to Deuteronomy? If the answer is yes, then you removed corner stone (no pun intended) from Christian belief. Everything else comes crumbling down.

John, thanks for the link to that dissertation. Looks like an interesting read.

Casper · 02-13-2007, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Hence his point. This doesn't make any sense. How can someone believe that "its all mythology", yet be a Christian? I don't see any sense to it.

Brings to my mind that quote, if I may paraphrase from memory,

"If you can't differentiate superstition from God, what does that tell you about God?"

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02-13-2007, 10:10 AM	#17
Roller Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cleveland Posts: 658	Forums are little jerky today. Double posts (or in my case triple) abound I can understand Genesis to be author(s) stuggle to understand the world and his attempt to explain how/why things came to be the way they are. I can appreciate that. I can also understand Jesus' attempts to explain God's love for His creation. But that (in my limited understanding) just does not fit in Nicene creed. Christians are supposed to believe in Nicene creed (or something close to it). I'm not sure how Dave Allison can believe in Nicene creed. If Jesus was wrong about the end times, doesn't that disqualify him as a prophet according to Deuteronomy? If the answer is yes, then you removed corner stone (no pun intended) from Christian belief. Everything else comes crumbling down. John, thanks for the link to that dissertation. Looks like an interesting read.

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