foxjazz

Depends on how you define local doesn't it? Local societies, local cultures? The USA is a local society and ranks with Japan, Korea and many other industrialized societies.

Maybe its better to take advantage of the fufu cannibals and take over their land, food, and crap because its what we do.

We have a culture designed to destroy others, re-brainwash their religions, and create a different set of values they must adhere to live in our world. Because it is our world isn't it? We claim it, must be ours. I don't see Godzilla claiming any territory.

I have always said it would have been better to Nuke Iraq instead of fight them with our weapons. Would have been cheaper, and fighting kind of unnecessary. I don't see the difference between one life and a billion. Its just numbers anyway. People die, they gotta die some time, why not sooner than later?

I am not really a cynic, just like pretending.


Fox

Gurdur

I think you're confusing your wars. We're discussing the Russian Communist take-over versus the Czarist regime that went before.
Would you care to address my point that the Communists were not that bad compared to the Czarists ?
Especially when it came to Jews ?
I don't think so, I don't think so at all.
You still haven't answered my points about your mythical "man in place of God" government, or the fact that the Czarists were pretty awful, or that you can hardly call the Russian Communists unparalled, since the Thirty Years' War makes them look like amatuers --- you've simply fallen back on a rather meaningless generalization that people can be stupid.
That doesn't answer me at all, and I would like to know why you think your point --- whichever one -- still stands. Rock, you are simply not answering the point.
I shall now restate the points:

1) You have claimed the crimes carried out in the name of atheism in the Russian Civil War were unparalled.
I have proven you wrong with the simple example of the Thirty Years' War.

2) You have claimed that these crimes take place when "God is dethroned in place of man".
I have disproven your argument with the examples of the Thirty Years' War (religious), the Czarist regime (religiously approved), and I have questioned your vague statement.
You've failed to either address my rebuttal or make your statement meaningful through precision.

So would you please address these points ? Ta muchly.

Pouye

You have not proven anything. The Thirty Year's War killed an estimated 14 million people.

Well, if you want to compare apples to oranges, go ahead. I was specifically talking about religious persecution by a group of people who are considered atheist... not two religious factions warring againts against each other. I still doubt that the Thirty Year's War claimed more lives than the religious persecution by the government in Russia between the years of 1917-43. Here are the facts:

The persecution of religious believers in the Soviet Union during the period 1917-1943 was the most sustained in history. Soviet atheism was directed against a mass worldview. Victims of this persecution weren�t just clergy or theologians, but basic believers themselves.

Russian intelligentsia of the early 19th century under Lenin and Stalin�s leadership made religion a scapegoat for Russia�s economic and social problems. Lenin threw peasants into slums, destroying their way of life and causing them to abandon their religious rituals. The Russian Orthodox Church, which had the largest number of faithful, was attacked, and nearly all of its clergy and many of it believers were shot or sent to labor camps. Theological schools were closed and church publications were prohibited. By 1939, only about 500 of over 50,000 churches remained open.

Campaigns against other religions were closely associated with particular nationalities, especially if they recognized a foreign religious authority such as the Pope. By 1926, the Roman Catholic Church had no bishops left in the Soviet Union, and by 1941 only two of the almost 1,200 churches that had existed in 1917 were still active.

The Lenin regime was especially violent against the Muslim religion. Between 14,000 and 19,000 Muslim clergy disappeared between 1918 and 1924 either into exile or death.

But throughout this turbulent history, the tremendous violence of these attacks were undermined by the Soviet people, who continued to celebrate religious holidays and observe religious customs on the sly.

When Stalin at last realized the persecution of the church was a political blunder, he met with church officials to begin the elimination of anti-church persecution. In essence the atheist state admitted defeat against the battle against the church.

Alexander Yakovlev, a man who served on the Politburo and the main architect of perestroika under Gorbachev, has written an excellent new book (review here: http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/6598-13.cfm)
on Soviet tyranny and mass murder entitled "A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia." He also arrives at a total of nearly 30 million killed: "My own many years and experience in the rehabilitation of victims of political terror allow me to assert that the number of people in the USSR who were killed for political motives or who died in prisons and camps during the entire period of Soviet power totaled 20 to 25 million.

Your piddly little Thirty Year's War doesn't compare.

Gurdur

Nope, that wasn't how you started off at all.
You tried claiming "dethroning God" led to all those deaths --- and I simply gave an illustration of a religious war that destroyed your claim of the Russian Civil War being "unparalled", as well as showing the sheer meaningless of your-still unspecified claim that about "dethroning God" leading necessarily to those deaths.

Now you are simply trying to backtrack and move the goalposts ---- suddenly from claiming that atheism somehow necessarily led to all the deaths under the Russian Revolution, and that therefore atheism must lead to suchlike, you suddenly wish to claim you were only talking about religious persecution, thus trying to get off the hook about religious wars.
Well, no deal.
The Thirty Years' War also contained religious persecution --- by both sides of each other.
Care to address this point ?
Most victims of the Stalinist repression (which is what you are talking about) were not victimized for their religion at all.
Early 20th century, not early 19th century, , and besides which, you still haven't addressed the point of how the Russian Orthodox Church participated in the repressive Czarist regime (and how many peasants would you like to estimate were killed under the Czars ?), or the anti-Jewish progroms.
Care to compare how many Jews were murdered because they were Jew�sh under the religiously-approved Czarist regime and under Stalin ?
You claim yourself the Thirty Years' War --- fought on religious grounds, BTW ---- killed 14 million people.
Up to 35 % of the German population, which not even Stalin could compare in terms of percentages.
And now you try brushing it off as "piddling" ?
That doesn't strike me as being a terribly good argument of yours at all.
Back to Soviet Russia --- by percentage, who do you think suffered under Stalin more ? Old Bolsheviks or religious for the sake of their religion ?

And despite 3 posts of mine, you still haven't tried specifying anything at all about what you mean by "dethroning God", nor why it should be more worse than say a religious war which killed more than every third woman, child and man just within one country, let alone say talking about the destruction it brought to the Netherlands or Czechoslovakia.

You see, I'm still hammering away at your claim about "dethroning God" necessarily leading to all sorts of terrible things which wouldn't have happened otherwise.
Are you going to answer me on that or not ?

Calzaer

I just don't understand how a Christian can be upset over the Holocaust. Hitler was only doing to the Jews what God is going to do to them anyway, right? The outcome (torture, suffering, death, horrors on a vast scale) is the same and the reasoning is basically the same... so how can anyone say it's bad when Hitler does it but JUST RIGHTEOUS AND ALL-LOVING(tm) when God does it?

Pouye

I already did. As Lenin and Stalin systematically tried to destroy religion in Russia ("dethroning God" is a euphemism for this), they killed lots and lots of people (millions). Their philosophies and ideologies were part of the problem (not to mention maybe some loose screws...). In other words, they were both atheists and a**holes. I'm not trying to say all atheists are a**holes. I'm saying that there are some pretty terrible attrocities associated with communist regimes which happen to have been run by atheists.

I agree with you that the Thirty Year's War is a good example of the same type of idiotic philosophies and ideologies coming into play (thinking you and your ilks are inherently superior to others is never good...) Do you think just because I'm a Christian that I would actually be stupid enough to defend those who instigated and fought in the Thirty Year's War? What is your point? There are many people who call themselves Christians but who do not follow Christ's example of how to treat people. There are atheists who are compassionate and merciful who also are smart enough to admit that monsters like Lenin and Stalin were monsters with atheism as part of the roots of their thinking (not the only part... obviously...)

Rock

Pouye

And you are NOT upset over the Holocaust? Last time I looked in the mirror I was human...

What is God going to do to the Jews? Maybe this?:

"Though you were once despised and hated and rebuffed by all, you will be beautiful forever. You will be a joy to all generations, for I will make you so. Powerful kings and mighty nations will bring the best of their goods to satisfy your every need. You will know at last that I, the LORD, am your Savior and Redeemer, the Mighty One of Israel. I will exchange your bronze for gold, your iron for silver, your wood for bronze, and your stones for iron. Peace and righteousness will be your leaders! Violence will disappear from your land; the desolation and destruction of war will end. Salvation will surround you like city walls, and praise will be on the lips of all who enter there...
...Your days of mourning will come to an end. All your people will be righteous. They will possess their land forever, for I will plant them there with my own hands in order to bring myself glory. The smallest family will multiply into a large clan. The tiniest group will become a mighty nation. I, the LORD, will bring it all to pass at the right time.�
Isaiah 60:15-22

Rock

Gurdur

That is different from religious people murdering millions in the name of religion just how ?
Rock, go back to the beginning of this split-off thread where I defended your OP from both Biff the Unclean and Amos.
I was the first one to mention atrocities in the name of atheism; and I am disappointed you should try fobbing me off with poor arguments, tired clich�s and evading the point. You have simply not answered me honestly. More on this in a moment.
Rock, your rudeness is both unbecoming and also not terribly relevant to the point.
My points, as I have made very clear 4 times, and as you have not even tried to answer right until this last answer of yours are:

1) Your talk of "dethroning God" is meaningless, since you cannot point at any society where God is enthroned and therefore things go better.

2) Your talk of atrocities in the name of atheism misses the point, as well as being something that I first brought up in reply to Biff the Unclean.
The reason why atrocities in the name of atheism is irrelevant right at this particular juncture is your implicit claim that things go better with religion ---- and I disproved your claim that things go better with religion. Religion has had its muderous devotees even more than atheism had.
Oh, very good, very good. Do you have any point to make ? Any point I haven't already made in this thread in the defence of you, missionaries, your OP and your introduction to this board ?
Just to reply in the same rude vein as yours, but with a tad more ... relevance.
Now Rock, please consider the following:
When you post here, keep in mind many of us here know theology from top to bottom, have a thorough knowledge of Church history and of history in general, and have smarts.
Therefore it would be consequent and courteous of you to reply with that in mind ---- as I said 3 posts ago.
To be very blunt, all you are doing up to now in this particular discussion is reminding me of all the reasons why I became an atheist --- why I abandoned Christianity.
It was because of people preaching immature theology at me, inconsistant and historically false arguments, and generally getting all hoity-toity when those arguments were proven false.
In any case, you now seem to admit all my points with the sole exception of your "dethroning God", which I regard as meaningless and factually false until you can come up with valid examples of societies enthroning God and getting along the better for it. You will find that difficult, since some of the modern societies that care most about all their citizens as well as caring about foreign aid to those worse off are getting quite secular --- e.g. Sweden, Germany etc.
I'm rather disappointed to have first sprung to your defence only to be fobbed off with rather irrelevant evasions.

Enlighten Me

It's pretty clear to me that Calzaer is trying to make a point here by using irony. Only a black-and- white thinker could miss his intent... Or someone who would like to think that atheists are not bothered by the Holocaust....

Biff the unclean

I couldn't help but notice, before this dethroned God topic came up, a description of the indigenous people. Without the intervention of your cult you see them as bloodthirsty murderous cannibals, too stupid to have even simple interactions with civilized people.
Before your group domesticated them they had "pay back" oddly enough the same system Yahweh uses (an eye for an eye�)
You've made you attitude towards them quite clear.

And let's not forget The contant fears of evil spirits which used to rule them has given way to hearts of thanksgiving for nature and the beauty of their land.
Those evil jungle spirits wouldn't happen to be Satan, Lucifer, Beelzebub, and the two thousand or so evil spirits who collectively call themselves "Legion" (for I am many), would they? You remember Satan don't you? The one who tricked Adam & Eve and brought sin, corruption and death into nature. Made this fallen world a trial, a veil of tears?
LOL