RAFH

Etcetera? Etcetera? Come on, Vivo, you can do better than just four examples and an 'etc.'. Go with the moment, let it all out.

David B

Self taught, or did you have some sort of initiation ceremony that can get one into a suggestible state?

If the latter, it seems that some people are more susceptible than others. I've seen a stage hypnotist talk to several volunteers, before picking a few. I volunteered, but was not picked - though i was digging a thumb nail into a finger quite hard when he was talking to me. I wanted to be picked but not hypnotised. I certainly had experiences from my meditation that seemed very real at the time, as do many others, though I've also known people initiated into my type of meditation who didn't get any subjective effects.

David B

Donnmathan

No (and I know I'm about to disappoint Lars here a little bit) she didn't. In fact, I was kind of led to the conclusion that believing in the "old messiah" wasn't for me, either.
That's about all I get out of it most of the time, too...plus the occasional "sleeping limb" someone else mentioned. Every once in a while, though...
You are quite right, but suggestability normally feeds one the expected outcome, or a magnification of it. Going in Christian and having it challenge and alter your faith is not typically the result of suggestability. Imagine someone doing an activity they catagorize as masculine, a "guy thing", without any expectation that it will change them in any way, and ending up being convinced they're gay. I somehow can't chalk that up to suggestion.

c davis

It seems those whom speak to God spend most of their time trying to convenience the other half of (disbelievers) that there is a) a God and even more surprising B) that you or I can speak with IT or her or he........!

And of cause you get all kind of theories and information on how to believe and to speak to this magnificent, incredible deity......I'm one of those who spend some time comtemplating the exist of god.......in order to explore the theory I started with mediation................and looked into a couple of religions..........And on a few occasions decided to even have a little chat with this great and impressive deity.........

This remains of a story........of a guru and very ordinary person like you and me A farmer in fact........This very ordinary person had a family....a wife and a two sons.....he too spend days comtemplating on the existence of a God and went he thought it necessary he too would have a chat with this great deity........after much thought he decided that the only way he know for sure..... if there was a god or not was?....was to reach enlightment....

He heard of a great guru who sat on the top of a mountain and this guru was known to have great wisdom and insight into such matter. So he decide to go climb the mountain and sit beside this guru and asked to give him enlightment........

The guru looked at him and asked the ordinary little person like you and me..
"why are you here?"

"I am here so you can teach about the existence of God. I want enlightment" he answered.

The guru looked at him and simply said, "I have nothing to say. But if you want enlightment you must do want I ask."

"What is that?" he asked eargerly.

"Go back home to your wife and children...........and come back to see.... if you only need to do so."

The farmer didn't understand but nevertheless he wanted enlightment and so did what the guru asked of him. He went back home to his life and looked after his family, the animals and the farm......

Days, weeks, and months passed .....and nothing much seem to change.... The farmer was no closer to solving the mystery of God and so he felt no closer to enlightment....

After six months he went back up the mountain and once more sat next to the great guru and said in disappointment, "I have done everything you have asked of me. I have looked after my wife, and my children and my farm. But what you have told me is wrong. I have not reached enlightment."

The guru looked at him with compassions and said, "Yes, I can see what you have done........but tell what have you lived?"

Donnmathan

Nope, I'd call that some form of schizophrenia, most likely. If I recall the situation correctly, she showed typical symptoms of some kind of psychotic disorder. See, in order to be reliably classed as having such a disorder, one normally must exibit more than one of a laundry list of symptoms. For delusional disorder, the one you seem to be implying we have, one needs only experience something others don't. It is not characterized by ANY other symptoms at all, and is in fact seperated from other psychotic disorders in that the ONE symptom is all you need to have. Nice, neat catch-all for anyone who inconveniently believes in personal relationships with deities/spirits, without any other evidence typical of mental disorders needed. In short - a crock of horse-crap.
The violent behavior kind of points to something a bit more serious than delusional disorder. Counter-question - is everyone that believes someone is out to get them suffering from paranoid schizophrenia, or could they genuinely have someone after them?
First, I never assume anything in a dream is a real experience. I've been chased by my own socks in a dream, so I can't see how someone could sort relevance from goofy brain function there. As for waking experiences, I DID question my brain. Went to a psychologist, was told I had delusions, namely delusional disorder, but nothing in any way dangerous. He went through several sessions with me, and I walked away happy.

Then two things happened...one of those experiences led me to do something I never would have otherwise that made a huge difference in my life, and I looked up delusional disorder on the web. Imagine my shock to discover that the only symptom is to have experiences the scientific community deems impossible and wrong. Two other psychologists since have told me the same thing, but otherwise stated that I'm quite healthy. No other disorders at all, unless you count acrophobia. So, how am I not supposed to question the relevence of the diagnosis? I still filter everything I experience through a healthy dose of common sense, but I've never had any problems. I see a vast difference between me and that poor woman who drowned her children.

My question is, if it has no other symptoms needed, and doesn't make one non-functional in society (some types do, but those seem very tightly focused, and usually come in company with another disorder), how can you be sure it IS a mental disorder at all?

RAFH

I've tried on my own, with yoga masters, martial arts masters, hypnotists, regular bozos, just about everything. I still do a bit of yoga for stretching. I did a lot of conceptualization and mind/body training as a teenager. I can almost always fall asleep in very short order and usually wake up when planned without the need of an alarm. I can destress most of my muscles on command, well, used to but now my right half is prone to uncontrolled spasming due to chronic pain. I just always got bored within a few minutes. I remember one where they were talking about taking an elevator down a shaft, I got all involved with the elevator, what were its dimensions, gearing, motors, how the controls worked, where it was going. I am better off going to my own fantasy worlds. I guess I just zone on thinking.

Donnmathan

Oddly, I agree with most of what you said, and for a time agreed 100%. My contact came with the "good" deity of a religion that wasn't supposed to exist from my formerly Christian perspective, however. Exactly what you insinuate shouldn't have happened. For the record, I NEVER believed that Jesus or any other figure of the Judeo-Christian mythos had any personal contact with me.
True, for the most part. A few exceptions - conversion experiences, like mine, and the almost-non-religious person who has a "random" experience that jolts them back to active belief. Neither one expects the experience, nor are they convinced the deity in question should be able to do so. To catch a point you may or may not make before it comes up, I firmly believe atheists can and have had the occasional brush with the "other", but tend to dismiss them for exactly the reasons mentioned by you and others here.
So I gathered. That works for you, but it does not catagorically exclude my viewpoint, either.
You go right to the messy question, don't you? My definition is much broader than most - I would call it "any being - corporeal or not - that has abilities far enough beyond current human that we cannot understand their own nature or that of their abilities." I know that could apply to any number of things, including very advanced aliens if they exist. I do not believe (any longer) that the relationship between what I term "god" must be one of worship, but it is definately one of superior to inferior. I best characterize my relationship with my own as more of a student/teacher, akin to how a Buddhist sees the Buddha.

Likely not what you were expecting, but it's my view.

Donnmathan

Thanks for your opinion. If it makes you feel any better, your viewpoint is shared by most psychologists...at least as far as the first point on your list. Most of us are quite functional, though, so I think the rest is a bit strong, don't you? Beyond that...please list the emperical evidence you claim supports the contention that they did not have the experiences they claim - and remember, absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence, so stating that we haven't seen deity in the scientific sense doesn't mean squat.

Vivo

INNNNHHAAAAALLEEEEEEEEEE

delusional,crazy,notallthere,coo-coo,deranged,loony,wacko,nuts,psycho,bonkers,crack ed,gonzo,screwy,unhinged,raving,mental,apeshit,mad ,funnyinthehead,fuckedup,christian

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Relieved.

Donnmathan

For what, a hypothetical question?