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Veteran Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Nazareth
Posts: 2,357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dog-on
Though a much simpler explanation would be that the author of Mark used the writings of Josephus as scaffolding upon which to hang a bit of flesh.
This historicists are purposefully putting the cart before the horse, as it were...
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JW:
Here's my inventory of evidence that Josephus was a source for "Mark":
Direct evidence
"Mark's" Fourth Philosophy Source (After Imagination, Paul & Jewish Bible) = Josephus
1) "Mark's" Jesus predicts the destruction of the Temple. So does Josephus' Jesus:
Correspondent: Neal Godfree
Link: http://members.dodo.com.au/~neilgodfrey/2jesus.htm
Smoking gun excerpt:
Quote:
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Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him.
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2) "Mark's" Jesus has a Mission to conquer Jerusalem and destroy the Temple. So does Josephus' Romans:
Correspondent: JoeWallack
Link: Jewrassic Pork. Evidence (More) Of Fiction In The Original Gospel
Smoking gun excerpt:
Quote:
Note the following reMarkable common words/ideas with the Historical Roman campaign:
1) Gerasa - An especially noteworthy town as it was built by Rome, was populated mainly by Gentiles, was temporarily controlled by the Jewish rebels and was an important conquest on the way to Jerusalem. Also, a major rebel leader, Simon, was from Gerasa.
2) Legion - This name for the Demon is especially telling as it is also the primary name for units of Roman soldiers.
3) Pigs - Using pigs is telling as this would be the primary animal Jews associated with Gentiles. Also, one of the conquering Legions had a Boar as it's standard.
4) Two thousand - This is close to a casualty figure from the Historical Gadara conquest (twenty-two hundred).
5) Drowned - In the Historical Gadara campaign the most horrific method of suffering and execution was drowning.
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3) "Mark's" Jesus advises not to cheat on your taxes. So does Josephus:
Correspondent: Gary Goldberg
Link: New Testament Parallels to the Works of Josephus
Smoking gun excerpt:
Quote:
Comment
It was seen above that an important part of the political background in Jesus' time was the Fourth Philosophy of Judas the Galilean. In the present passage is the clearest indication that Jesus was seen by some of his contemporaries as involved with that group. The originating tenet of the Fourth Philosophy was that one should not pay taxes to Rome, as this was interpreted as a turning away from God. When the people in the cited passage ask Jesus if it is "lawful to pay taxes to the Emperor, or not," they are referring to the Fourth Philosophy's reading of the Law of Moses. The questioners, even if they were hostile to them, can't be seen as setting a devious trap -- they were trying to pin Jesus' philosophy down by asking him his opinion on the central question of the times.
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4) "Mark's" Joseph apo Arimathias asks for and receives three crucified, one of which recovers. Josephus apo Matthias asks for and receives one of three crucified who recovers:
Correspondent: Paul Tobin
Link: The Burial
Smoking gun excerpt:
Quote:
The similarity in the names of the main protagonist is also considerable. In the same work, Josephus elucidated his distinguished ancestry. His grandfather, also named Joseph, begot Matthias his father in the tenth year of the reign of Archelaus (AD6). In the Greek text (the language Josephus wrote in) Joseph begot Matthias is rendered as Josepou Matthias. In Mark's gospel, Joseph of Arimathea is written in Greek as Joseph apo Arimathias, the similarity is curious. To quote Schonfield:
It is certainly curious that we have Josephus, himself a Josepou Matthias, begging the Roman commander for the bodies of three crucified friends, one of whom is brought back to life. [11]
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5) "Mark's" Jesus' brothers are James, Joses, Judas and Simon. Josephus' Judas the Galilean's sons were James and Simon, (crucified) and Joseph was the High Priest (removed).:
Correspondent: JoeWallack
Link: Mark "I Am IronyMan". How Much Ironic Contrast, Transfer and Reversal Did He kraM? - The Mark's Brothers
Smoking gun excerpt:
Quote:
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And besides this, the sons of Judas of Galilee were now slain; I mean of that Judas who caused the people to revolt, when Cyrenius came to take an account of the estates of the Jews, as we have showed in a foregoing book. The names of those sons were James and Simon, whom Alexander commanded to be crucified. But now Herod, king of Chalcis, removed Joseph, the son of Camydus, from the high priesthood, and made Ananias, the son of Nebedeu, his successor.
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6) "Mark's" servant of the High Priest has his ear cut off. Josephus records that Hyrcanus had his ears cutt off so he could not be the High Priest.
Correspondent: DCHindley
Link: http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....38#post5799738
Smoking gun excerpt:
Quote:
http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/t...hus/ant14.html
10. And thus was Antigonus brought back into Judea by the king of the Parthians, and received Hyrcanus and Phasaelus for his prisoners; but he was greatly cast down because the women had escaped, whom he intended to have given the enemy, as having promised they should have them, with the money, for their reward: but being afraid that Hyrcanus, who was under the guard of the Parthians, might have his kingdom restored to him by the multitude, he cut off his ears, and thereby took care that the high priesthood should never come to him any more, because he was maimed, while the law required that this dignity should belong to none but such as had all their members entire
http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_14
Mark 14:47 But a certain one of them that stood by drew his sword, and smote the servant of the high priest, and struck off his ear.
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Indirect evidence
1) "Mark's" Evangelist brother "Luke" clearly used Josephus as a source.
Correspondent: Richard Carrier
Link: Luke and Josephus
Smoking gun excerpt:
Quote:
# The same three rebel leaders: Judas the Galilean--even specifically connected with the census (Acts 5:37; JW 2.117-8, JA 18.1-8); Theudas (Acts 5:36; JA 20.97); and "The Egyptian" (Acts 21:38; JW 2.261-3, JA 20.171).
It seems quite a remarkable coincidence that Luke should even mention these men at all (no other Christian author does), and that he names only three rebel leaders, and that all three are the very same men named by Josephus--even though Josephus says there were numerous such men (JW 2.259-264; JA 20.160-9, 20.188) and he only singled out these three especially for particular reasons of his own. In fact, to use only the rather generic nick-name "The Egyptian," instead of, or without, an actual name of any kind (there were millions of Egyptians, and certainly thousands in Judaea at any given time), though explicable as an affectation of one author, seems a little strange when two authors repeat the same idiom.
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2) The extant External evidence is unanimous in showing "Mark" as a second century creation.
Correspondent: JoeWallack
Link: The Papias Smear, Changes in sell Structure. Evidence for an Original Second Century Gospel.
Smoking gun excerpt:
Quote:
We may be creating an Intersection here for the creation of "Mark". Papias testifies that c. 125 he is not aware of any written Gospel Narrative and this is Confirmed by Eusebius who Reviews all available Church writings looking for the earliest evidence for the Canonical Gospels. Clement c. 110 shows the first evidence of an increasing Church hierarchy. Thus, the Motivation for "Mark" to write an anti-hierarchal Gospel exists starting c. 110. The earliest reference to use of a Canonical Gospel is Marcion c. 135. This suggests a dating range for "Mark" of 110 - 135.
JW:
The External evidence indicates "Mark" is early second century and at this time Josephus would have been the recent and authoritative source for the history of the background to "Mark's" story.
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3) It's been demonstrated that "Mark" has the following non-historical sources, Imagination, Paul and the Jewish Bible. Each established non-historical source shortens the distance to the conclusion that "Mark" also used Josephus as a source.
Correspondent: JoeWallack
Link: "Mark's" Fourth Philosophy Source (After Imagination, Paul & Jewish Bible) = Josephus
This post again illustrates the need for an organization of reference material for Skeptics as Toto, in a quick search, found four Threads of limited value to the issue at hand and missed the Thread that was spot on.
Josephus
HISTORIAN, n.
A broad-gauge gossip.
http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page
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05-20-2009, 01:18 AM
