sharon45

Furyus George,

You ask about why do I not back up what I cite, yet I have, just not enough to your personal satisfaction it would seem. I find that very curious from christians that mention "to back up 'claims'", yet, from their very own bible starting with, "In the beginning, when God created the universe..." all the way to, "May the grace of the Lord Jesus be with everyone", christians have ever to show really anything in the form of true evidence to back up any of these obvious brash claims.Now, paul says it does not matter how the word is gotten across "whether from wrong or right motives." Even the pretenses of saying from Phil 1:15 onward, he has ever to back up one of his claims. Somehow he knows the inner thoughts and motives insides of others and even while he is inside prison. He has himself in such a grand position within Phil 1:16, he thinks god has given him the work of defending the gospels. How would he really know that, and how could he ever hope to show everyone else the proof of such a claim? All of these claims are not only grand indeed, but far out of reach to be truly presented as even evidence, all part of the deception of christianity: great promises without showing how this really could ever be met.Just because you don't understand how this is deceptive, that means I am misinterpreting? No, you are claiming I am misinterpreting, you have yet to show where you feel this is. I have already shown why the passage is deceptive from stating paul learned it from the 'master', jesus himself.Afterall, jesus started the original deception acting as though he was sent from god on a mission to save everyone from (another one of his claims), hell. This is outright lying because he can't even produce a correct quote from the Tanach that even states such a place as hell, or anything about his 'mission' or any real evidence to show either, just his own say so. Paul ushers in around the same kind of outlandish claims of 'he is on a mission from god' and such. Both jesus and paul only have their word to 'back up' anything they claim, none have a hope to show anything in the way of true evidence to support these claims, so their claims have about as much validity as a claim I very well could make of holding both of them captive somewhere in a hidden prison cell. It is all put together on trust on faith, until properly proved, such impossible claims can only be seen as a way to deceive the more weak minded.

Paul states that while not actually being of a group he hopes to convert, he pretends to be like them in order to win them over. In 9:20-21 He puts it that he will act and live either like a Jew or a Gentile or order to win people over. He pretends to be under the law of Moses even though he states in the passage to be, in reality, under the law of christ, what else besides living in a pretense, but to deceive? One person can not exist as both a Jew and Gentile, but paul pretends to be either to win over converts. In 9:22, even though he is clearly not one of weak faith seen from his various writings, he tries to live like that and with those of weak faith to win them over, again, obviously deceptive, to be all things to all men, to in time, win them over.

Since you claim you see nothing wrong with those that pretend to be something that which they are not, to in time gain trust within a group, to lead them into a belief they see as right, and don't see that as deceptive; then you must not mind if an atheist or one of another religion, tries to join in with christians pretending to be as them, in order in time, to lead them away from christianity. Much like christians would think as anyone without christ is lost, so is it about the same with Jews when they have their members swayed away from Judaism, they think of them as dead or lost, it is a very heartbreaking experience.

If what a christian believes is right is being honestly shown and is not part of a deception of others so they can accept it also as being right, then it must be delt with in an all upfront honest manner, not pretending to be something that christian is not. People have to have the true free will to be able to truly decide for themselves, not have an illusion part of the motivating factor.I don't wish to spend too much time on this because it doesn't completely have to do with the deception of paul but more the knowledge gained from that:Also, with groups being created like 'Jews for Allah', their plan is to even "surpass 'Jews for Jesus'".

Do a search of "Martin Rosen" and "jesus" together and anyone can find lots of info for themselves. "Martin", that was the founder's name of "Jews for Jesus, a deceptive proselytizing technique" before he changed it to be more like a Jew to win over converts. They count him as a baptist minister ordainded in 1957 and was assigned to serve the American Board of Missions (missionaries) to the Jews from many sources, and that allegedly he is a Jew by birth who converted to christianity in the mid 1950's and much more. Here are two pages talking about him, first from a book review and second from about a large recent missionary campaign.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/bo...osayjesus.htmlhttp://www.cjc.ca/template.php?Rec=61&action=opedAnd from more of the Jewish perspective:And finally:Yet another pretense.

Furyus George

Here is the entire post you wrote earlier in this thread:

If you want to find fault in paul that is very easily done, many passages to choose from, try just a little further down in Romans 19-20 and then on to 22 as examples of paul's outright lying.

An unsubstantiated "brash claim" if I've ever seen one. As for "in the Beginning, God..." many scientists hypothesize that the universe is not eternal, with both time and space beginning with The Big Bang. Genesis 1:1 may be truer than you'd care to admit, but I digress.



Taken in context of the passage {Phil 15-18} Paul says that some preach "out of selfish ambition, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I'm in chains." Paul goes on to say "What does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached." He is saying that he doesn't care if those with wrong motives stir up trouble for him as long as Christ is preached. This is hardly an endorsement of deception.



Seeing that Phillipians is a letter to believers in Phillipi, it isn't much of a stretch to believe that these same believers had informed him of those with wrong motives, either in letters of their own or personal visits.



Phil 1:16 ~ "The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel."

Where does it say in this verse that God gave him this task? And considering Paul's conversion, how can we know exactly what God put on Paul's heart? In a more modern colloquial, it could be said that Paul not only talked the talk, he walked the walk. Considering he killed Jesus' followers prior to his conversion, his own ministry and death are pretty solid proof to me that something happened to Paul.



To you the verses { 1 Cor 9:19-23} may seem deceptive, but I dare say you won't find any biblical scholars to back you up. Paul says that "To the Jews I become like a Jew to win the Jews. To those under the law I become like one under the law..." etc. What he is saying is that he's not going to ask if he can repair a Jew's roof on the Sabbath so he can discuss Christ, because those under the law don't work on the Sabbath. He isn't going to invite a Jew over for pork bar-b-cue since Jews don't eat pork. I think a far better word to describe Paul in these verses is not deception, but empathetic.



Seeing that there are over 30 prophesies about Jesus that came true in the last twenty-four hours prior to His crucifixtion, I'd say that indeed Christ was "sent from God on a mission." As for hell, try Daniel 12:2 for starters. Hell wasn't fully established as punishment until the NT, but the OT does not deny its existence, but rather leads up to it.

I've dealt with this earlier. I'm compelled to add that Paul did not see "weak faith," he said "weak." Big difference. Again, empathy, not deception. If you choose to see it as deception, feel free, but you are incorrect.

I've snipped all the "Jews for Jesus" info you posted. None of it dealt with your claim: There are many christians that pose as Jews, learn Hebrew, follow the diet laws and such, but slowly hint to others among them about jesus." This is nonsense.

By the way, you insinuate that my closing signature is pretense, even though we've never met and you know nothing about me. At the same time, you belittle Paul for knowing someone's motives even though he was imprisoned. Interesting.

Furyus George, isn't deceiving anyone.

Sensei Meela

This is a little misleading...many (most?) scientists think that 'the universe' is eternal, and it's presently recognizable space/time began at the big bang (shortly thereafter, but I am following you on your digression anyways, so let's return to the OP)...

How might one who preaches the Good News of Christ be stirring up trouble for the self-proclaimed defender of the Gospel? It would seem to me that the 'trouble' they 'stir-up' would be from lies and misinformation, if for no other reason than that those who preach have lied about their status. And if Paul hasn't 'endorsed' or 'condoned' it here, he hasn't exactly rebuked them either -- save possibly the Romans passage where he 'justifies' the condemnation of a liar -- and he seems not to mind people lying about who they are in order to preach Christ, in deed (see also 1 Corinthians).

The short of it is: I read Paul saying he doesn't care who, why or how one preaches "God's truth" if it leads people to Him. He wants you to buy his story -- and it seems you have, for you assume it is "God's truth" that he's pitching, in the first place -- and so long as you've 'heard the pitch,' he rejoices!

Who else might have 'put him here'? It's implied. Good question. And given the contradictory nature of his conversion accounts, can we even take it seriously as a real event? That's another sidetracking question, though, so let's not digress.

Paul's "When in Rome, do as the Romans" approach is deceptive -- or at best beguiling -- and altogether inapporpriate for an honest man of God. Paul was clearly not "all things to all people," [foremost, a Gentile or a pagan...and even if he were, aren't Christians supposed to remain Christians at all times, renouncing all ties to their former 'selves' and becoming 'born again,' anyways?]. Saying he was 'sensitive to their beliefs' may be a bit of a stretch...

A dubious claim, indeed. We've been over 'prophecy' (sp. re: the messiah) on these boards plenty, so it doesn't warrant me restating, and neither is it entirely relevant.

sharon45

This has already been gone over enough so I don't need to again bother. You have yet to truly back up these impossible claims.About the same as above, yet you again are just stating what you think this means instead of just plain reading what paul is writing.You are again just plain assuming this, it is not stated, even if it were, it would be still hear say, I could also claim anything I would like as well, means nothing.The word "god" is in my version, so sorry then, I guess it looks much better to you that paul self-appointed himself "the defender of the gospels" without god's approval, or without knowing who appointed him, maybe the devil did? Either appointed by paul himself, god, or even the devil, it really doesn't matter, because there is nothing at all shown to back up any claim he or you could make in this matter as your second part once again just assumes. In my conjecture, I could easily know not to trust anyone with a history similar to paul's.In the first part, where would you have anything to back up this quite obvious brash claim once again? Besides, in with your second part, this has already been shown enough, I guess you will just have to assume and disagree as you've held onto so far instead of just actually reading paul's text. He says he will be as a Jew, not just try to respect a Jews laws, he says, he will become all things to all men, that isn't just in the order of respect as you assume. Respect would be a much better word not empathy, but still would be already very obvious, not exactly worth going on and on into such details about as he clearly does for a reason, one that seems to have escaped you.Seeing as all from the whole 300+ christian prophecies, none really refer to the real coming Messiah being as the character of jesus and even some are contained within the book of Psalms which do not contain any prophecies at all let alone about the Messiah or jesus. And I said you can't find any reference to hell in the Tanach, you can find many in the various corruptions listed as the "OT", but that is really not anywhere near a correct source.Again, sorry, "weak in faith" in listed in my version, instead with yours, it is left as a general term meaning which could mean weak in anything, strength, spirit, faith, mentality, etc. Mine has it listed in what would more closely fit in with paul's current subject. It still shows one of deception because he clearly wants to pass himself off as though he were weak to win over those who are again weak.I said it really wasn't related completely with the OP, but I did indeed show my case. You wanted other sources, I gave them, and it is very easy to do research on your own to find these things out without just listening to me. In my articles I had links to, they state a few times about how J4J is deceptive, you can find facts from Jewish sites and former members of J4J about this subject if you are really interested,(which so far, you show you are not).Because I have been doing this for about thirty years. I've talked with many claimed christians and most of what I see posted on this board has already been a thoroughly delt with subject. I don't claim to have to know you, my experience tells me enough, yet your statement instead implies that you think you know something extraabout me. Until you back up this statement, whether my assumption is correct or not, it remains still just a pretense just like your latest stated below.

Furyus George

Exactly. Your conjecture.

Yes, seeing as all. Sure. I like how you continue to make statements like this with such authority, yet if I say the sky is blue you scream "Pretense!"



So in this case, the Tanach and the OT aren't similar? In many of your own posts, you refer to the "Tanach/OT." Why the inconsistency?

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...20#post1509020
"As told within the Tanach/OT a real prophet is the mediator between G-d and the Jewish people."

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...62#post1508862
"The subject of hell is used by christians as a very powerful tool, yes, but hell it is not a part of the Tanach/OT and that version of a god. Much of the NT can not be explain without trying first so, out of most of the confines of the Tanach/OT writings."

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...77#post1508777
"By the Tanach/OT, it is clearly stated over and over, there is only one true god. The New Covenant is stated in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and while christians think otherwise, this does not in anyway change facts from within the Tanach/OT of that Prophet. Jesus is stated in Deut. 13 as I and many others have many times pointed out, again thoroughly ignored by christians. The NT makes claims it can't in anyway back up as having a true connection with the Tanach/OT, so they have to remain as claims only until done so."



Here is your original claim, made earlier in this thread:
"There are many christians that pose as Jews, learn Hebrew, follow the diet laws and such, but slowly hint to others among them about jesus."

None of the quotes you provided had anything to do with your claim. As for visiting your links and proving your claims, nice try. Do your own work.

Here is a statement you made earlier in this thread mocking Paul: "Somehow he knows the inner thoughts and motives insides of others and even while he is inside prison." Yet your experience allows you to reach conclusions about me. Why are the two situations different?

I do know something about you, and I didn't use my experience, I used NotePad and the search feature: you hate Christianity, and by extension, I can assume, me. Hatred is definitely an un-evolved emotion, eh?

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...11#post1500611
"Although I have an absolute hatred of christianity and a lot of the bible, it still does contain some parts of real wisdom and goodwill with characters having much positive thoughts and actions in their various stories."

Furyus George, prefers ostentatious

sharon45

Furyus George,

I will not give this much attention since by the responses, it is more shown that you want to argue, state fallacies, twist, play games, and use assumptions than to really debate. This I already knew from your first response, but entertained you anyway. I and others have made our points quite clear, yet with each response, you continue to ignore them and clearly as pointed out, paul's own writings themselves. Instead, you more and more, push this thread further away from the OP, so to give your responses much time, is really a bad idea getting worse.

As I said before, I use my experience, you can continue to use the search command as you like. I use Tanach/OT when it pertains to both at once as should have been clear enough. There is only one Tanach, yet many many versions of the OT. Hell is not listed in all versions of the OT. And that wasn't really counted as even a response to my answer about prophecy, more like yet another assumption.

You continue to assume as I have pointed out enough already, yes, I've made it more than enough clear that I hate christianity, but I hate no christian, just its mythical founder. Hatred is a real emotion, nothing primitive when used against those that already hate, kill, and oppress others, in other words, when used against beliefs and regimes like christianity. Hate is primitive when taken to contradiction of a person's ethics, another match for beliefs like christianity. Christianity hated me long before I had even heard of it or known what it was.

sharon45

I wanted to try to make a few comments on another passage I found that relates with this OP.

In 1 Corinthians 10:32-11:1, paul states to not cause trouble to either Jew or Gentile or to the church of god and try to please everyone so that he might save them, and with that he says imitate me as I imitate christ.

1. In order to preach and win over Jews, concerning Jewish belief and to Jews themselves, that is causing harm to them and their families and for them to stumble, because his beliefs go counter to those of Judaism, afterall, they are Jews not christians. In enough passages from the NT, jesus is shown to be an example of the warning in Deut. 13, he wants to divide people, he wants to separate Jews from what they were taught before, these are to be replaced by what he is teaching now.

2. Then in trying to please everyone, that is a deception, he does not in anyway have to agree with people, and if they are not a christian, that is already implied, yet, he will try as he can to please anyone in order to win them over to christ.

3. He states that in this manner he is imitating christ, but in the NT, jesus goes out of his way to speak with authority and give his own opinions as though they were from god himself. In many passages, that had close enough to riots starting from those that were angered by what he said, wanting him stoned. Jesus simply states his messages most of the time, he is not really showing much interest or concern with the audience's wellfare, his words are the new law, my way or the highway. Not exactly showing a person wishing only to please people in order for his message to get through. Jesus does not really pass himself off as "all things to all men" as paul wants to do in order to win over people. To imitate jesus in some ways is nothing impressive, since jesus was a human, almost everyone who has ever lived, imitated jesus in some way within their life without even having to know such a person existed.

That last point relates to the so-called 300+ prophecies pertaining to jesus. It's very easy to find passages out of the OT and try to fit/force/stage them into the NT's stories and beliefs. Of the many cited passages, they are really talking about such completely unrelated and also common things with many out of context. I am disappointed that christians have not really found thousands of prophecies in relation to jesus instead.

Kilgore Trout

Here is a perfect example of Paul's lies and deception.
Romans 3:10-14:
All of these are lines Paul took out of various psalms. They are referring to specific groups of people. They are saying things like "evil people are...", "my enemies are..." Romans 3:10-12 I'm not sure about. It's taken from Psalm 14...
Note it starts out saying "the fool says..." It does say "all" have turned aside but then it says evildoers devour "my people". If EVERYONE is evil why does god still have "people"? So I think saying "all have turned aside" is another example of how the psalms use hyperbole.

Even if that part does fit, the rest doesn't. Paul is piecing these together like they all belong together and they don't. He is taking these out of context. It's like when a movie reviewer says something like "This is the best example of a movie that will bore you to death that I have ever seen" And then the ads for the movie say "This is the best...movie" That is lying and deception. Taking quotes from the OT out of context is a common deceptive tactic in the NT.



Of course you snipped it. Sharon45 presented good evidence that Jews for jesus uses deceptive tactics so you want to just ignore it. Why would you want to confront something that proves christians use deceptive tactics? If you just ignore it, it might go away. This is a deceptive tactic on your own part. Even if Sharon45 gave you the exact evidence you are asking for, you wouldn't believe it anyway. Since Martin Rosen was a Baptist minister for 13 years or so before he started Jews for jesus, that shows that he was not currently a Jew when he founded it. That is very deceptive. When a Jew becomes a christian, they are no longer a Jew. Calling himself Moishe is just further deception. Why didn't he use that name when he was a Baptist?

Those so-called prophesies are more deceptive tactics that christians use. For example, psalm 22 is just another psalm about a man in trouble, it is not a valid prophecy. Funny how jesus doesn't fullfill any of the valid messianic prophecies, because he's "going to do them when he comes back", but because he can actually quote from psalm 22 before he dies, and he rides a donkey into Jerusalem that's supposed to be an amazing fullfillment of prophecy! :notworthy Anybody who was beaten and crucified would "fullfill" the verifiable parts of Isaiah 53. All the parts about dying for our sins and things like that cannot be verified in our reality, so claiming he fullfilled those is begging the question. In other words you claim he is the messiah because he fullfills these prophecies, but the only reason why you think he fullfilled those prophecies is because you claim he is the messiah.

Jesus is a false prophet as defined in Deut 13 because he was teaching ideas contrary to the Torah, all your alleged prophecies are not going to make up for that.

Furyus George

Pual is quoting various Psalms, Isaiah and Ecclisiastes. Let's put things in context, though: He is writing a letter! He is making a point! Instead of starting at Romans 3:10, why not include verse nine as well?

What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.

Then he writes as it is written:

Paul doesn't represent what he is quoting as though it came from one place. Shall I go over to the science forums and hold everyone to the same standard as you demand of Paul?



Again, context. First of all, what is a Psalm? Simply put, is a prayer or song to God. Many, believer and non-believer alike, consider it poetry. David wrote the beginning of Psalm 14 from what he felt was God's perspective, and then finishes with words of encouragement for his oppressed people. Therefore, it is easily understood how "all" could be evil, and yet there still be some who are God's people. As for the fool, he is not referring to an atheist. He is referring to someone who pays lip service to God, yet "in his heart" says there is no God.



No, they are not out of context. They are examples of sin. Do you really think that Paul meant those he was speaking of actually had poison from vipers on their lips? Do you think that their throats were actually open graves? Paul was trying to make a point. This is not lying and it is not deception.



Sharon 45 did not present evidence to back up her claim that "many" Christians will dress like Jews, follow the food laws, etc. Lets say there are 10,000 Christians that do so, though I'd be willing to bet you'd be hard pressed to find 100. In any case, how many Christians are there worldwide, a billion? Two billion? 10,000 out of a billion is not "many." She just tosses it out, like much she writes, as though one only need go as far as the next street over to find a Christian "acting" like a Jew. I stand by my response: Nonsense.



One can most certainly be a Jew and a Christian. Heck, I know Jews who don't even believe in God.



In our reality? My reality screams that Jesus is God. The verification is the life I've lived since becoming saved 14 years ago. And I don't mean to imply how holy I've been; if anything, I've been plenty wretched. The point is, I do believe Jesus fulfilled the prophecies, and He is central to my existence.



It's interesting that 2000 plus years of Christianity have survived with Deuteronomy 13, yet you're able to decide that Christ is a false prophet. Christ claimed to be God, Deuteronomy 13 warns against anyone or anything that claims to be other than the "Lord your God." Really no problem here.

Furyus George, context is everything

LP675

Far out! I knew that devious chap at the Christian book store ripped me off! Romans in my bible only goes up to chapter 16!

LP