DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR

Nay TonyN, he pretty much understands, there'd only be one point he might need a little help on, a tiny minor, not a misunderstanding as you assert, but that's what we try to do here at IIDB, help each other out.

That is what you are here to do isn't it TonyN?


How long can it possibly take to cut and paste from... A.E. Knoch's inaccurate,
mistranslated Bible and all the rest of his senile rants? You told me in another thread that you have all the time in the world...

Should I be under the assumption that you were simply mistaking your assertion that you have all the time in the world?

Surely you don't expect us to wait till the eons of eons for yet more of your stall tactics?

Without realizing it TonyN, you have already established atheism not to be wrong, with your proof and evidence, in every thread you've been playing around in.

You're spelling of historically is inaccurate, and you've erroneously spelled inaccurate, repy's not a word while we're at it, did you mean reply? Perhaps you need to get back to the basics of how words are spelled before you assert your authority on reading, translating, and the historical accuracy of the supposed word of a god?
You might appear less unintelligent in your noble effort to "open people's eyes"...
Oh well nobody gets everything right no matter how hard they try!

Koyaanisqatsi

I have a feeling that will be around the time when Jesus returns.

Birdman

I see - there is a difference between proving a negative and proving the non-existence of some thing. Can you not make a proof for, say, "it is the case that this car does run fast" ? Your claim is "this car doesn't go fast," which is a negative, yet could you not construct a proof? I don't remember where I put my notes from last semester, I do recall using reductio (reducto) ad absurbtum or whatever, RA, as a way to prove a negative.

I agree with the non-existence of gods though, there is nothing in daily life that would require the existence of a super-natural entity, so why should I have to prove that it doesn't exist? But why get all caught up in the fact that they're supposed to prove him - they're never going to. We'll just keep sitting here telling them they're wrong, they'll keep rationalizing an irrational position...I mean you see TonyN here making all kinds of stupid statements about the historical accuracy of the Bible while not offering a refutement of our statements.

TonyN

Well, David,
Between working two jobs plus taking care of a daughter and other life demands I finally got back to replying to you.

David: I'll start by thanking you for actually addressing my question, and at some length. Further comments interpolated below.


Quote
Originally Posted by TonyN
Dear David B, Thanks for the kind reply.


No prob


Tony: Quote:
When did any of those specific animals become extinct? Was it pre or post flood? If pre then there is no problem. If post, how did they get on that island? They had to be on the ark Noah had built. So, how did the land animals get there post flood?


David: The dodo became extinct a few centuries ago, followingthe great voyages of discovery. The rest - or representatives of the broader groups, like lemurs, are still surviving. From memory, I think some lemurs have recently become extinct - but it's not worth checking, as it doesn't affect the argument.

I suppose the biblical inerrantist position is that they must have been on the ark.

Tony's reply:
It does not take a Biblical inerrantist to take such a position, just one who believes it is the truth as to what occurred.

Tony:
Quote:
"And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of the one was Peleg. For in his days was the earth divided. And his brother's name was Joktan. And Joktan begat Almodad, and Sheleph, and Hazarmaveth, and Jerah, and Hadoram, and Uzal, and Diklah, and Obal, and Abimael, and Sheba, and Ophir, and Havilah, and Jobab: all these were the sons of Joktan. And their dwelling was from Mesha, as thou goest toward Sephar, the mountain of the east. These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations. These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and of these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood" (Gen 10:25-32).

David:
What time scale are we talking about here? It does seem clear to me that the world was inhabited from small beginnings, but the conventional wisdom is that these beginnings were in Africa. Maybe we can get back to that at a later date, though.

Tony: If you call chimp or gorilla bones small beginnings, maybe so, but surely not the beginnings of humanity. I believe that the Scriptures state the beginnings happened near Babylon near the Euphrates (Gen.2:14).


Tony: Quote:
At one time, before the flood, all the continents of the earth were one continent.


David: It does seem to be the case that not once, but several times, the continents came together. Again, I'm afraid I have to ask what sort of time scale you envisage for this single continent.


Tony:
There was on continent before Peleg was born and during his lifetime and then the one continent broke apart. Peleg lived from the year 2247-2008 BCE. Actually, I think, according to this chart

http://www.earth-history.com/Generation.htm

that Peleg was born 101 years after the flood and died 338 years after the flood. So it could take the animals possibly 300 years to get to where they had to get before the continents split apart. But it is my own personal belief that when they got off the ark they went immediately to the areas found today if they were not put there by man's international trading after the flood which surely was going on.


Tony: Quote:
After the flood, the animals were let free from the ark. Those birds, lizards and other land animals spread abroad once again to all parts of the one continent. It took about 100 years from the time Noah got word of the impending flood and which the animals came and there were over 100 years post flood for those same animals to go back to where they came from and re-multiply. In Peleg's day, the continents we see today, including some of the islands broke off with animals intact and continental drift rapidly ensued.


David:
Hmm. It does seem odd to me that different species of tortoise could get to small areas of land like Galapagos, that one species of lizard could get to one spcific Island in what is now Indonesia, That a species of flightless bird ended up in a small area that is now the Island of Mauritius... and I could go on and on here - but all these things happening without them leaving descndents on the way. How bif was the putative single continent at that time, do you suppose? How fast do tortoises walk? Flightless birds, Lizards, remembering that they would have to stop to breed on the way.

Tony's reply:
I don't know the size of the one continent. I guess we can get a clue if we join them all like a jig-saw puzzle.
That's a good point you bring up about descendants not being left behind. Of course if none are presently found or were not found in the past, this in and of itself does not prove none exist(ed).
If they traveled just one mile a day x 365 days x 100 years They could travel 36,500 miles.
If they traveled just 1/4 mile a day they could have traveled 9,125 miles. You get the idea.

I don't know how far it is from the mountains of Ararat to Mauritius but let's suppose 2,000 miles. It would have taken roughly 5 1/2 years to make the journey at 1 mile a day. The flightless birds probably could have done the journey in a year or less. It is my personal belief that most of the animals on the ark were young. I can't prove it so don't ask


David: Also, have you considered what they would be eating on the individual oddysses (so to speak) of all these species? Especially the meat eaters?

Tony: It could be that the animals entered into a sort of hibernation. Or their metabolism greatly slowed. But Noah had a ship the size of a small aircraft carrier. Plenty of room to supply the animals with plenty of food. Today's aircraft carriers can feed over 5000 people. There may have been a lot less animals on the ark. There was not every species of dog we find today i.e., german shephards, dalmatians etc. but just a couple dogs from which sprang all the differences we know today. Same with horses, pigs, etc. This too is my own personal opinion since I was not there at that time when they were loading the ark.


David: What do you consider the time scale of Ark settling to continents breaking up?

Tony: If you see the chart which I referenced above, it is possible to deduce from it the time scale.


Tony wrote before:
Quote:
I know some of you will say it is not possible.


David: I'm happy to explore the possibility with you. Frankly, I doubt if you will persuade me that it was possible, but let's suck it and see. Perhaps we shall come to the conclusion that it wasn't possible. That would not necesarily man that you would have to give up on Christianity - lots of self identifying Christians take the flood story as allegory.


Tony wrote:
Quote:
You say that everyone would have died had that occurred but if you figure one mile or even less per hour it would take quite a while for the continents to travel where they are today. And just because the continental drift is as slow as it is today does not mean it always was that slow.


David's reply:
At one mile an hour, it would take less than a year (by my quick mental arithmetic) for America and Britain to get 3000 miles apart.

But I would take the view that, while sometimes some continents have moved faster than others, there is a lot of evidence suggesting that a few centimetres a year is a more realistic figure. Perhaps we can explore that, too. Plate techtonics 101, as Americans seem to put it. You will be welcome to question, and dissent.


Tony:
Quote:
You might ask, if this happened, why did no one write about it? They did. It's in the Bible.


David:
Accounts of major floods are not only in the Bible. Lots of other places, too!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myths

However, can you give me a good reason to believe that all these stories refer to the same flood, or that the accounts were not exaggerated.

Tony's reply:
The above references actually prove that there was a major flood such as in the day of Noah for the story was handed down generation after generation from the descendants of Noah and the three families who re-kick-started the habitation of humans on the earth.

David wrote:
I am not going to dispute that there have been great floods in the history of the earth, from time to time. But at some point we might ask where the water to cover the highest mountains came from ,and where it went to.


Tony's reply:
I already covered this.

2Kings 4:2 And Elisha said unto her, `What do I do for you? declare to me, what have you in the house?' and she said, `Your maid-servant has nothing in the house except a pot of oil..
2Ki 4:3 And he said, `Go, ask for you vessels from without, from all your neighbors--empty vessels--let [them] not be few;"
2Ki 4:4 and you have entered, and shut the door upon you, and upon your sons, and have poured out into all these vessels, and the full ones you do remove..
2Ki 4:5 And she goes from him, and shuts the door upon her, and upon her sons; they are bringing nigh unto her, and she is pouring out,
2Ki 4:6 and it comes to pass, at the filling of the vessels, that she said unto her son, `Bring nigh unto me a vessel more,' and he said unto her, `There is not a vessel more;' and the oil stays.

And this miracle of multiplication:

And Jesus is saying to them, "How many cakes of bread have you? Now they said, "Seven, and a few small fishes." And, charging the throng to lean back on the earth, He took the seven cakes of bread and the fishes, and, giving thanks, He breaks them and gave them to the disciples, yet the disciples to the throngs." And they all ate and are satisfied. And of the superfluous fragments they pick up seven hampers full. Now those eating were about four thousand men, apart from women and little children."
(Mat 15:34-38)

At another time He repeated it:

Joh 6:9 There is a lad here who has five cakes of barley bread and two food fishes. But what are these for so many?
Joh 6:10 Yet Jesus said, "Make the people lean back.Now there was much grass in the place. The people, then, lean back, the men in number about five thousand."
Joh 6:11 Jesus, then, took the bread, and, giving thanks, He distributes it to those lying back. Likewise also of the food fish, as much as they wanted."
Joh 6:12 Now as they are filled, He is saying to His disciples, "Gather the superfluous fragments, lest some should perish."
Joh 6:13 They gathered them, then, and cram twelve panniers with fragments of the five cakes of barley bread which are superfluous for those who were fed."

God multiplied the water to flood the earth just like the oil was multiplied and the bread and fish. There is simply no clue that the stories of the oil and fish and bread are to be taken allegorically.. After the earth was flooded the water drained off the earth back into the deep abyss and He also reversed the amount of water.



Tony wrote:
Quote:
It does not make sense that if the flood was only to take place in that specific area Noah was living in at the time of Mesopotamia which is only about 400 miles long and about 100 or so miles wide (my numbers might be a little off as I am going by memory), why would he take 100 years to build an ark? Why not just three days off from work and take his family and all the animals and go out of that area? If it is just a make believe story, it does not make a bit of sense if the flood was just local. It would have taken Noah only about three days to exit the area, family and animals intact.


David:
I wish I knew the Bible better. Can you tell me how it is believed, on biblical grounds, that Noah lived in Mesopotamia?

Tony's reply:
It is not said Noah lived in Mesopotamia but it is said that the flood spoken of in the Bible occurred there. That was my point.


David:
I'm far from sure that the flood stories that are common in many cultures around the world are just mke believe stories, as you put it.

Does it make sense to you that some of the many flood myths might be folk memories of big events in the history of the Earth - but exaggerated a bit?

And if some, why not all?

Tony's reply:
I think they are all handed down from the one flood in Noah's day but that the Biblical account is accurate. You can ask me why it is accurate and the others are not. I believe Moses (if he is the one that wrote Genesis and I believe he is) used genealogical data handed down from generation to generation beginning with Adam up to his present day. That data is very exact and true. The verbal interactions between them and God and other humans are true as well. I have not reason to doubt the world-wide flood. No one has given concrete evidence to absolutely disprove it.


Tony:
Quote:
I take the world-wide flood as a real event and that the post flood continental drift allows for the reason why all the animals of today are where they are barring international trade.

Humbly submitted,
Tony


David:
And your evidence for that seems to me based entirely on a few verses in an old book - a book which contains some facts, some myths, some cosmological speculation, some internal contradictions, but for which there are no good grounds for thiking inerrant.

Now where do you want to start?

Tony's reply:
Actually, maybe if you read the Genesis account you can count the verses and prove to yourself that there are more than three verses concerning Noah's flood.


David:
I'd suggest with your putative datings, as requested in my post above, as then I would be better informed about how to proceed.

David B

Tony's reply:
Please see link above.

RED DAVE

From TonyN:
Since the Biblical flood allegedly occurred after the founding of Egyptian civilization,

(1) why is there no indication in Egyptian records of such an event or

(2) any indication of a break in Egyptian history?

I eagerly await your answer.

RED DAVE

Mageth

Again, Peleg's "division" if considered in context refers to the dividing of the lands among the descendants of Noah, not to the splitting of continents.

"International trading"? Among the eight surviving humans? Or, after 100 or so years, their (being very generous) few hundred descendants?

Do you know how ridiculously contrived your attempts at explanation are?

How many miles can a snail travel in one day?

Umm, you can't use one miracle in the Bible to "prove" another miracle in the Bible.

There are far older recordations of flood myths than that found in the Bible.

In other words, you believe the Bible to be true. So your answer to "Why is it accurate?" is simply "I believe the Bible is accurate".

Again, the "Peleg" reference (in the context of Ch. 4-5) refers to the dividing up of the lands among the generations of Noah, and not to the geological splitting of continents.

And "international trade"? In the time span you gave, there is no room for such to have developed. There simply would not be enough people.

TonyN

1. If there is no indication in Egyptian records of that specific flood of Noah it is because any scribe that could have written of it died in the flood.

1. I guess you are going to have to prove there is no break.

TonyN

<edit>who said anything about certain snails on the island David brought up?


The Bible gets its information from the proper sources. Prove otherwise.


Just before the civilization surrounding Babylon was disrupted after the flood there could have been millions of inhabitants. Until you can prove otherwise, please desist.

The Peleg reference does not apply as you suggest. That is your opinion just as mine is my opinion.

EarlOfLade

1. You have been presented with overwhelming amount of evidence showing no global flood, yet you reject it all.

2. No matter how much and what type of evidence is being presented to you and which goes against your belief, is ignored and ridiculed.

You have no intention nor the will to, accept evidence.

RED DAVE

From RED DAVE:
From TonyN:
And there isn't. And you know it.

From TonyN:
That is the dumbest shit I have read on this board in a long time. What about the scribes that came after the flood? Where did they come from?

From TonyN:
No. You have to prove that there is a break. You are making an extraordinary claim: that well within historical times, after the invention of writing, the entire world was covered by a flood. You need some proof.

There is no break in Egyptian historical records. There is no gap. There is no evidence of the death of the entire population and a revival of civilization. Writing survives, in the same language, Ancient Egyptian, without mudstains, from before and after the alleged date of the flood.

Where's the evidence for a flood?

I eagerly await your answer.

RED DAVE