Roger Pearse

I endorse this. I got interested in Mithras some years ago and compiled all the ancient sources. It was depressing how much rubbish there was on the web, once you knew the data.

Julian the Apostate in Hymn to King Helios (Oratio 4) says precisely this.

Both Censorinus and Prudentius describe VIII kal. Jan as the New sun, that is certainly true. I think it was generally supposed to be the solstice.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Meatros

Thanks - it seems that even what little I *thought* was true might be in doubt.

Where should I go for 'ancient sources'? You said you compiled a bunch of ancient sources - any websites?

Thanks,

Roger Pearse

Sorry, yes. For Mithras sources try here. The other obvious source is Cumont's textes et monumentes in two volumes, available at Archive.org.

Ancient sources are widely available online in English. What I meant here was that, when you see a claim that (e.g.) Adonis had a festival in mid-summer which lasted two days, look and see if the claim is referenced to some ancient source. If it isn't, treat with great circumspection, especially if it is controversial or evidently polemical. If it is referenced, do a Google search for an English translation of the full text given in the reference (i.e. not some collection of supposed quotes). It will usually be out there somewhere. Then check whether the source really says what it is supposed to say (and the "two days" appears to be a myth, judging from my efforts last week). But most of these claims are not referenced to any ancient source.

'References' to some non-ancient author of unknown age and date and repute are not references at all, of course. And even the best modern textbooks either refer to the ancient source (in which case why are we referencing the book that gives the reference, instead of the reference?) or they do not (in which case why are they offered as a source at all?).

I hope that helps -- shout if it isn't what you had in mind.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

andrewcriddle

Hi Roger

IIUC the basis of the idea that the festival for Adonis lasted two days is the passage from the Hymn to Adonis in Theocritus' 15th idyll which seems to refer to two parts of the festival on successive days.

Day one the bridal bed
Day two the lamentation on the shore
How far this is a valid interpretation of Theocritus I am unsure.

Andrew Criddle

Roger Pearse

Many thanks for this. I knew of the passage, but had overlooked that particular bit.

Now I've also seen Lucian, De Dea Syria, adduced, which also refers to an clean-up event "the day after". But neither seems to really state a two day festival; that's an inference. Is there anything in this that means the festival was not 8 days, with clean-up on the "morning after"? (The 8 days referring to the gardens of Adonis). The headings given are not part of Theocritus, I think? The Loeb for Idyll 15 is here and has none.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

andrewcriddle

Hi Roger

You are quite right, the headings are not part of the original.
I added them to make clear how Theocritus is used (rightly or wrongly) to argue for a two day festival.

Andrew Criddle

Roger Pearse

Certainly they're useful - thanks. I don't know the scholarship - any idea who so argues?

andrewcriddle

Wagner in Pauline Baptism and the Pagan Mysteries for one. (This is a very good book but long out of print.)

Andrew Criddle

Roger Pearse

Thanks -- I'll look out for it. Always useful to have some sources!

Cege

My understanding has been that the 325 CE council of Nicaea probably agreed upon December 25 as the celebration of the birthday of Jesus. The Roman Saturnalia feast was celebrated by pagans during the week before Dec 25, and the church leaders wanted to appease Christians with a celebration holiday in the same time frame.

There are no records of the council to review regarding this theory, so it's still only a theory among several.