Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Oolon Colluphid · 03-02-2006, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

Actually, Christianity is true not because I say so, but because it is true

Could you run that one by me again please? Maybe I'm a bit thick, but I'm struggling to differentiate between "true because it's true" and "true because I say so".

Quote:

and any honest examination of the evidence from history and science bears this out.

What evidence from either discipline supports "Christianity", and how are you defining it? I mean, does historical evidence bears out that there was a bloke called Jesus (even that is very debatable, and much debated in these parts)... or that this Jeshua died and came back to life (which science says is impossible), or...?

Quote:

I would consider your position to be one of blind faith.

If yours is not, let's see that evidence you claim to be acquainted with.

Sven · 03-02-2006, 07:09 AM

Oolon here? What happened? Too few creationists in Ev/Cr today? :Cheeky:

Oolon Colluphid · 03-02-2006, 08:15 AM

My degree's Classics. If anything, BC&H is where I ought to be...

Diogenes the Cynic · 03-02-2006, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

No, Allah actually was the moon god that Mohammed gave preeminence to. Salman Rushdie got himself in hot water with the Muslims for telling part of that story. If you compare the ideas about Allah and Yahweh, you will see that they are two different gods. There is only one true God, Yahweh.

Where did you learn this, from a Chick Tract?

You are misinformed. The "Allah/ Moon God" thing is a complete canard. Mohammed explicitly identified his God as being exactly the same God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus that is worshipped by Jews and Christians.

Incidentally, Yahweh was probably originally the name of an Arabic Volcano God. Ancient etymologies prove nothing. Allah means "God" and Muslims believe that Jews and Christians worship the same God as they do.

mightyjoemoon · 03-02-2006, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Where did you learn this, from a Chick Tract?

You are misinformed. The "Allah/ Moon God" thing is a complete canard. Mohammed explicitly identified his God as being exactly the same God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus that is worshipped by Jews and Christians.

Incidentally, Yahweh was probably originally the name of an Arabic Volcano God. Ancient etymologies prove nothing. Allah means "God" and Muslims believe that Jews and Christians worship the same God as they do.

Not exactly... they would never accept the Christian's belief that Jesus was God incarnate. aChristian's god is Jesus. A Muslim's god is Allah. So in that regard, they are different gods. Both traditions go back to Yahweh worship initially of course, but they branched off enough to be considered different gods.

Net2004 · 03-02-2006, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Incidentally, Yahweh was probably originally the name of an Arabic Volcano God. Ancient etymologies prove nothing. Allah means "God" and Muslims believe that Jews and Christians worship the same God as they do.

This achristian guy repeated the nonsense of Robert Morey.We should ask him why all Israeli translations of the Qur'aan render Allah as Elohim

and why is it that Jewish scholars believe Allah is God of Israel

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/gentiles.htm

Quote:

While it is recognized that Moslems worship the same God that we do (though calling him Allah, He is the same God of Israel), even those who follow the tenets of their religion cannot be considered righteous in the eyes of God, because they do not accept that the Written Torah in the hands of the Jews today is the original Torah handed down by God and they do not accept the Seven Laws of Noah as binding on them.

While the Christians do generally accept the Hebrew Bible as truly from God, many of them (those who accept the so-called divinity of Jesus) are idolaters according to the Torah, punishable by death, and certainly will not enjoy the World to Come. But it is not just being a member of a denomination in which the majority are believers in the Trinity that is idolatry, but personal idolatrous practice, whatever the individual's affiliation.

Diogenes the Cynic · 03-02-2006, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mightyjoemoon

Not exactly... they would never accept the Christian's belief that Jesus was God incarnate. aChristian's god is Jesus. A Muslim's god is Allah. So in that regard, they are different gods. Both traditions go back to Yahweh worship initially of course, but they branched off enough to be considered different gods.

I've heard this argument before but I don't think it holds water. It's true that Muslims don't believe Jesus was God (although they do believe he was a prophet) but Jews don't believe Jesus was God either yet you don't hear Christians denying that Christians and Jews worship the same God. Even if you want to pick that nit, it at least has to be acknowldeged that the God of Islam is the same as the God of Judaism. Logically, you either have to recognize that all three religions recognize the same Abrahamic God or you have to say that Christians worship a diferent God from both Judaism and Islam.

mightyjoemoon · 03-02-2006, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

I've heard this argument before but I don't think it holds water. It's true that Muslims don't believe Jesus was God (although they do believe he was a prophet) but Jews don't believe Jesus was God either yet you don't hear Christians denying that Christians and Jews worship the same God. Even if you want to pick that nit, it at least has to be acknowldeged that the God of Islam is the same as the God of Judaism. Logically, you either have to recognize that all three religions recognize the same Abrahamic God or you have to say that Christians worship a diferent God from both Judaism and Islam.

I would agree with that. Christians will claim to worship the same god as the Jews, but their god is Triune and incarnate in Jesus. Yahweh/Allah are neither. They do all three recognize the same Abrahamic god, but the Christians worship a triune god that became flesh. Jews and Muslims do not.

aChristian · 03-02-2006, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oolon Colluphid

Could you run that one by me again please? Maybe I'm a bit thick, but I'm struggling to differentiate between "true because it's true" and "true because I say so".

Maybe a better way to say it is, "My belief has no effect on whether or not Christianity is true. It is true and the evidence for it is there for anyone to see."

Getting back to the point of this thread. I think you have all demonstrated with your attempts to show that God did something wrong that you believe in right and wrong. In short, you have a conscience, seared or not. This ability to recognize right and wrong was one of the many reasons that the people of Noah's day would have recognized him as a righteous man and should have listened to him. True, some may have so perverted themselves that they didn't recognize that, but most probably did. The answer to the original question of who would God allow onto the ark is probably anyone who wanted to trust him enough to be saved. God's requirements haven't really changed much.
By the way, if you want to complain about genocide, how about the flood? God righteously judged the whole world except for Noah and his family. That should put the fear of God into you. Don't forget his mercy though, he promised never to send another and sealed it with the rainbow. He's kept his promise on that and he'll do the same with his promise of forgiveness of sins through Jesus. It's nice to remember that everytime you see a rainbow.

aChristian · 03-02-2006, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Where did you learn this, from a Chick Tract?

You are misinformed. The "Allah/ Moon God" thing is a complete canard. Mohammed explicitly identified his God as being exactly the same God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus that is worshipped by Jews and Christians.

Incidentally, Yahweh was probably originally the name of an Arabic Volcano God. Ancient etymologies prove nothing. Allah means "God" and Muslims believe that Jews and Christians worship the same God as they do.

I'll have to look up the reference, but it wasn't Robert Morey. Do you know what it is that Salman Rushdie wrote that got them so mad?

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03-02-2006, 07:09 AM	#142
Sven Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: outraged about the stiffling of free speech here Posts: 10,987	Oolon here? What happened? Too few creationists in Ev/Cr today? :Cheeky:

03-02-2006, 08:15 AM	#143
Oolon Colluphid Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Alibi: ego ipse hinc extermino Posts: 12,591	My degree's Classics. If anything, BC&H is where I ought to be...

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