Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chili · 12-12-2012, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Evolution requires the transition of dumb animals such as kicking mules to gifted superior animals such as the posters in this forum.

The ancient people have to be credited with having achieved that transforming rational glory!

I say, Glory to the Neanderthal man and woman. Hallelujah!

But progress is always made against the contradiction or the rout could never 'be' to take stand in victory. So let me add three cheers for the losers here so the argument can go on.

Chili · 12-12-2012, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwaarddijk

[You are attacking a strawman here! I do think the gospels are obviously wrong and I say as much whenever it's relevant to the topic - I don't believe a single miracle described in it took place, I think several or even most of the reported discussions between Jesus and the pharisees are either distorted, invented or misattributed, and I think the narrative is badly stitched together out of anecdotes, exaggerations and religious interpolation of his life.

All allegory and obviously not a book for you to read, and the last thing you should do is first accept the historical JC and then try to prove him wrong.

Iskander · 12-12-2012, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwaarddijk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Let us assume that Achar is distorting history and that the Gospels are also distorting history.

You are claiming that Achar’s distortion of history is a mortal sin that deserves to be punished by hell on earth according to the judgement delivered by some northern Torquemada and some American cardinals.

You are classifying the distortion of history in the Gospels and in the Koran and in the Shudra enslaving Vedas as only a venial sin to be atoned by the reciting of a Hail Mary.

Have I got it right?

You are attacking a strawman here! I do think the gospels are obviously wrong and I say as much whenever it's relevant to the topic - I don't believe a single miracle described in it took place, I think several or even most of the reported discussions between Jesus and the pharisees are either distorted, invented or misattributed, and I think the narrative is badly stitched together out of anecdotes, exaggerations and religious interpolation of his life.

I do not defend the NT at all! The NT, however, when discussed by reasonable people is admitted to be a book full of things not to be taken at face value at all. Acharya's fans are much like religious people in that pointing out any flaw in her books is an affront to them.

However, Acharya's fans also oppose those who think Jesus was just a madman or a charismatic preacher who had some limited success in acquiring adherents during his lifetime, and who think his life was an entirely natural event with no gods or anything of the kind involved.

Which of the beliefs that Jesus was a small-time cult leader about whom a bunch of exaggerated works were written and that India has had civilizations for 100 000 years is a greater distortion of reality, if reality is that
a) Jesus is a mythical figure that was made human by people misunderstanding the story (rather than a human that was deified by people)
b) India has had civilization for <6 kyears ?
You refused to answer that, as a strawman argument such as the one you presented is misleading and just pure dumb.

Nowhere do I claim that her mistakes and distortions and fabrications are mortal sins, I am just claiming that these things make her books almost as worthless if used as scientific sources as the NT is.

I would respect you a bit if you didn't go to such annoying strawman arguments.

Such an aggressive response!!

This is what you wrote in post #576 “Which potential untruth is more major:
- positing that there was a man, in Jerusalem and environs (for some large value of environs), who riled some people up, got some adherents and finally got killed - whose adherents couldn't accept that he wasn't, after all, the messiah?
- pushing civilization back 90 000+ years, only because the Rig Veda says so?

Let us assume both are untrue, which of these two is the more major distortion of history?”

You wrote #576 in response to a simple question in #574 “Why is that important to you?”

You freely chose to explain its importance to you in religious terms, but now you are disrespecting me and accusing me of either malice or stupidity. Why do you say that it is a straw man and why your anger?

Zwaarddijk · 12-12-2012, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwaarddijk

You are attacking a strawman here! I do think the gospels are obviously wrong and I say as much whenever it's relevant to the topic - I don't believe a single miracle described in it took place, I think several or even most of the reported discussions between Jesus and the pharisees are either distorted, invented or misattributed, and I think the narrative is badly stitched together out of anecdotes, exaggerations and religious interpolation of his life.

I do not defend the NT at all! The NT, however, when discussed by reasonable people is admitted to be a book full of things not to be taken at face value at all. Acharya's fans are much like religious people in that pointing out any flaw in her books is an affront to them.

However, Acharya's fans also oppose those who think Jesus was just a madman or a charismatic preacher who had some limited success in acquiring adherents during his lifetime, and who think his life was an entirely natural event with no gods or anything of the kind involved.

Which of the beliefs that Jesus was a small-time cult leader about whom a bunch of exaggerated works were written and that India has had civilizations for 100 000 years is a greater distortion of reality, if reality is that
a) Jesus is a mythical figure that was made human by people misunderstanding the story (rather than a human that was deified by people)
b) India has had civilization for <6 kyears ?
You refused to answer that, as a strawman argument such as the one you presented is misleading and just pure dumb.

Nowhere do I claim that her mistakes and distortions and fabrications are mortal sins, I am just claiming that these things make her books almost as worthless if used as scientific sources as the NT is.

I would respect you a bit if you didn't go to such annoying strawman arguments.

Such an aggressive response!!

This is what you wrote in post #576 “Which potential untruth is more major:
- positing that there was a man, in Jerusalem and environs (for some large value of environs), who riled some people up, got some adherents and finally got killed - whose adherents couldn't accept that he wasn't, after all, the messiah?
- pushing civilization back 90 000+ years, only because the Rig Veda says so?

Let us assume both are untrue, which of these two is the more major distortion of history?”

You wrote #576 in response to a simple question in #574 “Why is that important to you?”

You freely chose to explain its importance to you in religious terms, but now you are disrespecting me and accusing me of either malice or stupidity. Why do you say that it is a straw man and why your anger?

Again you misrepresent me. My argument was not particularly aggressive compared to your response:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

You are claiming that Achar’s distortion of history is a mortal sin that deserves to be punished by hell on earth according to the judgement delivered by some northern Torquemada and some American cardinals.

You are classifying the distortion of history in the Gospels and in the Koran and in the Shudra enslaving Vedas as only a venial sin to be atoned by the reciting of a Hail Mary.

Have I got it right?

This both exaggerates my stance and misrepresents it in other ways, both of which are rightly frowned on ways of conducting a discussion!

Iskander · 12-12-2012, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwaarddijk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwaarddijk

You are attacking a strawman here! I do think the gospels are obviously wrong and I say as much whenever it's relevant to the topic - I don't believe a single miracle described in it took place, I think several or even most of the reported discussions between Jesus and the pharisees are either distorted, invented or misattributed, and I think the narrative is badly stitched together out of anecdotes, exaggerations and religious interpolation of his life.

I do not defend the NT at all! The NT, however, when discussed by reasonable people is admitted to be a book full of things not to be taken at face value at all. Acharya's fans are much like religious people in that pointing out any flaw in her books is an affront to them.

However, Acharya's fans also oppose those who think Jesus was just a madman or a charismatic preacher who had some limited success in acquiring adherents during his lifetime, and who think his life was an entirely natural event with no gods or anything of the kind involved.

Which of the beliefs that Jesus was a small-time cult leader about whom a bunch of exaggerated works were written and that India has had civilizations for 100 000 years is a greater distortion of reality, if reality is that
a) Jesus is a mythical figure that was made human by people misunderstanding the story (rather than a human that was deified by people)
b) India has had civilization for <6 kyears ?
You refused to answer that, as a strawman argument such as the one you presented is misleading and just pure dumb.

Nowhere do I claim that her mistakes and distortions and fabrications are mortal sins, I am just claiming that these things make her books almost as worthless if used as scientific sources as the NT is.

I would respect you a bit if you didn't go to such annoying strawman arguments.

Such an aggressive response!!

This is what you wrote in post #576 “Which potential untruth is more major:
- positing that there was a man, in Jerusalem and environs (for some large value of environs), who riled some people up, got some adherents and finally got killed - whose adherents couldn't accept that he wasn't, after all, the messiah?
- pushing civilization back 90 000+ years, only because the Rig Veda says so?

Let us assume both are untrue, which of these two is the more major distortion of history?”

You wrote #576 in response to a simple question in #574 “Why is that important to you?”

You freely chose to explain its importance to you in religious terms, but now you are disrespecting me and accusing me of either malice or stupidity. Why do you say that it is a straw man and why your anger?

Again you misrepresent me. My argument was not particularly aggressive compared to your response:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

You are claiming that Achar’s distortion of history is a mortal sin that deserves to be punished by hell on earth according to the judgement delivered by some northern Torquemada and some American cardinals.

You are classifying the distortion of history in the Gospels and in the Koran and in the Shudra enslaving Vedas as only a venial sin to be atoned by the reciting of a Hail Mary.

Have I got it right?

This both exaggerates my stance and misrepresents it in other ways, both of which are rightly frowned on ways of conducting a discussion!

Originally Posted by Zwaarddijk
You are aware Acharya implies that Indian civilization is 100k years old?

Why is that important to you?

So, why is important to you?

ApostateAbe · 12-12-2012, 08:41 AM

Iskander, I figure that accuracy of claims matters to some people more than others. I am one of those people who get at least a little miffed by ideological authors who mislead people about the objective world. You may not be one of those people, and that is OK. Not everyone cares about truth, and not everyone needs to care.

Iskander · 12-12-2012, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Iskander, I figure that accuracy of claims matters to some people more than others. I am one of those people who get at least a little miffed by ideological authors who mislead people about the objective world. You may not be one of those people, and that is OK. Not everyone cares about truth, and not everyone needs to care.

Are you saying that Z is overreacting? Would 80000, instead of 100 k. calm him down?

ApostateAbe · 12-12-2012, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Iskander, I figure that accuracy of claims matters to some people more than others. I am one of those people who get at least a little miffed by ideological authors who mislead people about the objective world. You may not be one of those people, and that is OK. Not everyone cares about truth, and not everyone needs to care.

Are you saying that Z is overreacting? Would 80000, instead of 100 k. calm him down?

I don't think so. Nobody likes being misrepresented. I think the solution is to apologize and to represent his opinions accurately and fairly.

Iskander · 12-12-2012, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Are you saying that Z is overreacting? Would 80000, instead of 100 k. calm him down?

I don't think so. Nobody likes being misrepresented. I think the solution is to apologize and to represent his opinions accurately and fairly.

I have repeated the question the same question .

spin · 12-12-2012, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwaarddijk

Again you misrepresent me. ...

This both exaggerates my stance and misrepresents it in other ways, both of which are rightly frowned on ways of conducting a discussion!

First, click on the user's name to the left of one of their responses, then choose the last item in the drop-down menu.

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12-12-2012, 08:41 AM	#586
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	Iskander, I figure that accuracy of claims matters to some people more than others. I am one of those people who get at least a little miffed by ideological authors who mislead people about the objective world. You may not be one of those people, and that is OK. Not everyone cares about truth, and not everyone needs to care.

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