Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jgibson000 · 07-05-2006, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Why do you assume the Upton Sinclair quote was about you?

Since (to my knowledge) Ted/Jacob Aliert doesn't teach theology, and since the message to which you appended the Sinclair quote was one from Ted about how he thought I was biased, it seemed a fair assumption. Apologies If I was incorrect in making it.

Quote:

I need some additional information in order to answer your question.

Did I ask you one? Looking over the message I sent to you, I can't see where (or even that) I did.

Jeffrey Gibson

Clivedurdle · 07-05-2006, 12:51 PM

If we are discussing competence, I note the anthropological comments I have made have not been responded to.

Does or does not ritual reinforce a worldview through violence?

Is that not a testable statement? Oh dear, what does the evidence show? Ubiquity in religion!

The persons who hold those world views may have great difficulty in recognising ritual and myth, much like, if we want to play psychologies, victims of child abuse may deny or blame themselves for the treatment they received at the hands of responsible others.

Maybe the church is not actually a loving parent but using mythical terms, is the wicked step mother!

So maybe Jesus was born of a very inadequate mother - in fact an unreal mother - a church with very cultic oppressive and unequal views on matters like the position of women, homosexuals, and wanting heirarchical control structures. Maybe these are not abberations from a model perfect church but predictable behaviours...

Actually reifying mothers is another classic symptom!

jakejonesiv · 07-05-2006, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgibson000

...That scribes didn't think that GENOMENON "was 'born' enough", especially to combat some notion that Jesus was not human or did not exist on earth, is most certainly not Ehrman's point. As his actual words show, the change (which, BTW, is attested to only in 075 226 323 517 910 1242 1982 2147 281 -- all of which are 10th century and later!), was to deal with another problem entirely....

Jeffrey Gibson

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/newreply.php...eply&p=3522005

What was Ehrman's point? Do you know?

Jake Jones IV

Clivedurdle · 07-05-2006, 12:56 PM

http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/c...sbn=0521314046

Quote:

From Blessing to Violence
History and Ideology in the Circumcision Ritual of the Merina
Series: Cambridge Studies in Social and Cultural Anthropology (No. 61)

Cambridge University Press

Maurice Bloch
Paperback

(ISBN-13: 9780521314046 | ISBN-10: 0521314046)

The circumcision ritual of the Merina of Madagascar is seen by them primarily as a blessing, involving the transfer of the love and concern of the ancestors of their descendants. Yet the ritual ends in an act of ciolent wounding of the child. Similarily, while the ritual involves a symbolic assault on women, it is nonetheless welcomed by them as a mark of receiving the blessing of the ancestors. In this book, Maurice Bloch provides a detailed description and analysis of the Merina circumcision ritual today, offers an account of its history, and discusses the significance of his analysis for anthropological theories of ritual in general. Pursuing the theme of the combination of religious joy and illumination with violence, Professor Bloch explains how, at various times, the circumcision ceremony can be a familial ritual as well as glorification of a militarist and expansionist state, or associated with anti-colonial nationalism. Describing changes that have occurred in the form of the ritual over two centuries, Professor Bloch argues that in order to understand the properties of ritual in general, it is necessary to view it over a longer time scale than anthropologists have tended to do previously. Adopting such an historical perspective enables him to identify the stability of the Merina ritual's symbolic content, despite changes in its organisation, and dramatically changing politico-economic contexts. As well as presenting an original historical approach to the anthropological study of ritua;, Professor Bloch discusses a range of general theoretical issues, including the nature of ideology, and the relationship between images created in ritual and other types of knowledge. The book will appeal widely to scholars and students of anthropology, history, African studies, and comparative religion.

Contents

1. The social determination of ritual; 2. Background politico-religious history of the Merina, 1770 1970; 3. Background to Merina social organisation and religion; 4. Description and preliminary analysis of a circumcision ritual; 5. The symbolism of circumcision; 6. The myth of the origin of circumcision; 7. The history of the circumcision; 8. The circumcision ritual in history: towards a theory of the transformation of ideology; Notes; References; Index.

jgibson000 · 07-05-2006, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/newreply.php...eply&p=3522005

What was Ehrman's point? Do you know?

Jake Jones IV

Yes. And if you'd check, you'd see that I already stated what it was.

Jeffrey Gibson

jakejonesiv · 07-05-2006, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgibson000

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/newreply.php...eply&p=3522005

What was Ehrman's point? Do you know?

Jake Jones IV

Yes. And if you'd check, you'd see that I already stated what it was.

Jeffrey Gibson

That is terrific news Jeffrey. Please provide a link. I think we are {snap} that close to resolving the whole issue.

Thanks,

Jake Jones IV

07-05-2006, 02:09 PM

This thread has been fascinating. I just want to thank Jeff for actually sticking with it, cutting through all the foolish comments and actually nailing down the ever slippery Jacob/Ted.

We now know why real scholars rarely bother with the Jesus Myth. It's because it isn't fair on the mythers.

Best wishes

Bede

jgibson000 · 07-05-2006, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

That is terrific news Jeffrey. Please provide a link. I think we are {snap} that close to resolving the whole issue.

Thanks,

Jake Jones IV

I doubt it. But please first let me know whether you were indeed applying the Sinclair quote to me. I have no inclination to carry on an exchange with someone who works from the assumption, or would level against me the charge, that I have no integrity and who stoops in argument to using the circumstantial ad hominem

Jeffrey Gibson

jgibson000 · 07-05-2006, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bede

This thread has been fascinating. I just want to thank Jeff for actually sticking with it, cutting through all the foolish comments and actually nailing down the ever slippery Jacob/Ted.

Ha! Thanks! But do you think that Ted would/will agree with your appraisal of what I've done?

Jeffrey

07-05-2006, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgibson000

Ha! Thanks! But do you think that Ted would/will agree with your appraisal of what I've done?

Jeffrey

Well, of course not. This is one of the threads that reminds me of the armless and legless knight from MP and the Holy Grail. But as a spectator, it's been worth it.

B

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07-05-2006, 12:51 PM	#302
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	If we are discussing competence, I note the anthropological comments I have made have not been responded to. Does or does not ritual reinforce a worldview through violence? Is that not a testable statement? Oh dear, what does the evidence show? Ubiquity in religion! The persons who hold those world views may have great difficulty in recognising ritual and myth, much like, if we want to play psychologies, victims of child abuse may deny or blame themselves for the treatment they received at the hands of responsible others. Maybe the church is not actually a loving parent but using mythical terms, is the wicked step mother! So maybe Jesus was born of a very inadequate mother - in fact an unreal mother - a church with very cultic oppressive and unequal views on matters like the position of women, homosexuals, and wanting heirarchical control structures. Maybe these are not abberations from a model perfect church but predictable behaviours... Actually reifying mothers is another classic symptom!

07-05-2006, 02:09 PM	#307
Bede Guest Posts: n/a	This thread has been fascinating. I just want to thank Jeff for actually sticking with it, cutting through all the foolish comments and actually nailing down the ever slippery Jacob/Ted. We now know why real scholars rarely bother with the Jesus Myth. It's because it isn't fair on the mythers. Best wishes Bede

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