Vinnie

Firsy off I agreed with Haran in another thread that the Jesus seminar gets wacky at times. Finally, I've seen you make a number of baseless commetns about JS members in your day--including Marcu Borg. Remember when I called yo uon that? It was obvious at the time that you talked about him simply because he was a J member but you knew jack shit about the man. If anyone has bias in response to the JS its you. You don't like them. I respect some JS scholars and some of their scholarship.

Meta resorts to childishly low blows in support of a monkey like Montgomery. That actually hurts. I really want to go back to school and finish up. Do you think I want to waste my brain my whole life cooking in a restaurant? But since you brought a subject up that gets me teary eyed lets continue:

Is it my fucking fault my parents were hooked on heroine and when it came to making a choice between working full time and having a place to live and going to school full time I had to drop the school as I wasn't able to successfully manage both? Maybe if I had a little more home support things would have been different.

With that being said, you can kiss my non-degree having ass if you don't like that fact that I don't have one. Did your dad end up in jail? Is your mom a fucking prostitute? You going to fund my way through college? No? Put a sock in it then asshole. Don't talk to me about not having a degree.

I just said in the other thread that I always like you. Well that just pretty much changed--pending where you take this BS.

Vinnie

Vinnie

Mods, if you dont like my latest response, I'll apologize tyo be polite to you but I aint really apologizing. Delete it, ban me, move it rants forum or do whatever you see fit!

Vinnie

Vorkosigan

Your saving grace is a strong sense of humor, Meta. You should come around to play more often. In the meantime I shall go do some maintenance on my own site.

Vorkosigan

Steven Carr

'Almost everyone expressed dobut about things like Pilate's existence.'

Metacrock gives no references , of course. He would jump all over , posting tons of references, if he had but one lonely figure, who claimed Pilate never existed. You would never shut him up. Yet he is silent, preferring insult to documentation.


Why are insults and information often in inverse ratio?

Metacrock

Meta:We Christians already have a savior, and it ant me. I know this was a farily common view in the 19th century. If you want some good books to read that deal with a lot of the history of scholarship, and likely will mention this, see:

An Interpretation of The New Testament: 1864-1964

by Stephen Neil.

The Primative Church Burnett Hillman Sreeter (1923)

History of Christian Missions Stephen Neil

Theology of St. Paul D.E.H. Whiteley.

The Cities of ST. Pual by Sir William Ramsay (1923)


Also see books by John Lightfoot

Lightfoot was writting in the 19th century so a lot of the views he refutes were the popular views or the views popular among scholars.

Metacrock

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vinnie
Firsy off I agreed with Haran in another thread that the Jesus seminar gets wacky at times. Finally, I've seen you make a number of baseless commetns about JS members in your day--including Marcu Borg. Remember when I called yo uon that? It was obvious at the time that you talked about him simply because he was a J member but you knew jack shit about the man. If anyone has bias in response to the JS its you. You don't like them. I respect some JS scholars and some of their scholarship.[/font]


Meta: Yea,there was a time when that was ture. I dislike the JS for it's synergy as a group. I like individuals in it. I like Borg, I like Crosson. I have been moved by Crosson's statments of faith. I still think L.T. Johnson's book The Real Jesus captures just what is wrong with them.





Meta:no I don't think you do! I think you have a bright future and you will do well when you go back. I was not aiming that comment at you'! But You are right, I should not have said it, and I apologize. I apologize sincerely.

I still don't think it's right to call anyone a moneky. I went to a very liberal seminary. The people at my seminary thought that the people at DTS were idiots. But no prof at my seminary would ever say that. Those guys don't talk that way, they dont' act that way toward each other. There might be some rolling of eyes now and then, but they don't say things like that.

I am not one to talk, I know that. But scholars are gentlemen. It's just that on the net,where there is little good will and you can't see faces or hear tones of voices, it's easy to get hurt and angry.




Meta: I wasn't trying to say that you don't know anything cause you don't have a degree. I was just saying that whatever you think of Monty, at least he does have the credentials, which should be worth something. I wasn't trying to put you down. I don't have a low opinon of you, I'm very impressed with your scholarship.

Yea, you are bascially a scholar already. You will get the degree I'm sure of it, and you will do well. I have faith in you becasue you obviously have the ability and the desire. Your work already is very impressive. I was not trying to put you down in any way.

I wasn't actually thinking of you when I said it, although I can see how it looks that way (that was stupid of me).


There's no need for all this personal stuff. Our personalities are not the issues here. But credentials do matter. I'm sure you get get them,and you do know a lot as is.

Metacrock

ahahahaha, I'm gald you see the humar when it's meant as humor. I wish everyone did.

Metacrock

I feel so bad about you thinking that I was trying to inslut you. I know exactly what it is like to be stuck in a shit level job and have big academic ambitions that don't seem to have any chance of being fulfilled.

It took me a long time to get my degree. I wish I could have been a cook in restaraunt. That's actually a good job compared to some of the stuff I had to do. At one point I couldn't get hired to scrub pots! My job then was knocking rocks thorugh a hole at a hmmar mill that produced humus organic fertilizer. I would have the billows of smoke in my face all day, wore surgeical mask, and sat there being shaken to peices by the mill and knocking rocks through the hole when it got clogged, and all the while thinking about Sartre and dreaming of graduate school!

I would never put anyone down who was struggeling to learn to go forward with school. And I really do respect your knowledge of Biblical scholarship.

and now that force the issue, I do have prejudices agaisnt the JS guys that I probably shouldn't harp on so much.

Clutch

I'm just looking in on this for the first time, but let me see if I've got the direction of the dialectic right.

This fellow Montgomery publishes the claim that liberal critics doubted even the existence of Pilate. (Presumably intended as a reductio of their methods, and hence of their broader conclusions as well.) Steven emails him asking for some evidence in support of this claim. Montgomery replies with evasion and vitriol, where providing at least one reference should have been fairly effortless. So it looks like he was just making up the claim in question.

What would mitigate this appearance? Probably nothing will make it vanish altogether, but someone might at least cite the kind of references Steven had asked for. It might not be obvious even then that Montgomery was aware of them, but at least they would be there.

So -- are there such references?

Metacrock now weighs in with three consecutive posts

None of these posts, however, contains a reference that would answer Steven's question. Each of them is devoted to a red herring; each is an insult; each poisons the well.

But we already had a contrast, from Montgomery's reply to Steven, between providing evidence for a claim versus indulging in evasion and vitriol. For Metacrock to add such an embarrassment of riches in the latter category is surely gilding the lily.

Haran

It did not look like evasion to me. It looked like someone who was fed up with trying to prove himself to people who probably constantly question him, probably many times in a not so friendly fashion. And he did provide a couple of references to certain parts of the claim before obviously growing frustrated.

I am not convinced of that. There is at least some information in Papias to back up some of his claim. I don't know how he concluded the rest, but it would have been nice if he had simply answered the question. However, I'm not sure everyone realizes how much time it takes to answer some of these questions sometimes, especially without notes and books, etc, in front of you. With someone challenging you in a harsh tone, it can be frustrating enough to simply say "Go look it up yourself!"

Again, do you guys realize how much time it would take any of us to go to a library and read through books trying to find what Montgomery was referring to, specifically in reference to Pilate? This seems like an almost silly request for something most of us probably don't care to prove. I am almost positive that Montgomery did not make up this claim, but short of asking him to find his notes and/or the books he is referring to, I have no way to prove it and I will not wade through a ton of old books trying to find references to a belief which few if any even hold today.....

GO LOOK IT UP YOURSELF!!!