Stephen T-B

sorry, but I can't leave this alone...yet.
That Ham, Shem and Japhet thing.
In order to speed up the breeding process, I wonder if God worked a bit of his magic to speed up puberty in their half-sister/daughters and half-sister/neices, so they could start bearing children nice and soon.
What - age 12?
Age 10?
Age nine?

One supposes that incestuous pedophilia wouldn't have been a topic much discussed around the Noah family table.

Stephen T-B

come to think of it, some of those half-sister/daughters and half-sister/neices might have been a bit too deformed to have babies.

But no!
One shouldn't circumscribe the powers of an almighty god. Presumably it could easily over come a little problem like that. After all, hadn't it found enough water to flood the world (and somewhere to put all that water afterwards)? Hadn't it found a way to keep thousands of anmials alive once they'd been released from the Ark into a completely drowned landscape, with nary a blade of grass for a hungry cow to chew on (and nary a cow for a hungry hyena to chew on)?

jackrabbit

Assuming that the hungry cows hadn't already been chewed on by the hungry lions, tigers, jaguars, and panthers while still in the ark.

Atheos

In fairness to the literalists, that's not quite how the story goes. According to the myth the three sons each brought one wife into the ark, so there were 8 human beings in the ark. -Atheos

Stephen T-B

crumbs.
How wrong did I get that! (Hangs head in embarassment).

Thanks Atheos. Makes perfect sense now.

But having suddenly become a Literalist (and being, of necessity, a bit inexperienced) I have a question:
What should I say to my colleague/acqaintance/person-who's-answered-my-knock-on-their-door if they should ask me whether, in order to become a proper Christian, they really have to believe the Biblical Flood actually happened as described in Genesis?
Do I say, for instance, "Look, brother/sister (as appropriate), if you can't believe in something as simple as that, how yer even going to begin to believe the story of the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection and the Ascension?"
If they continue to express some difficulty in this area, should I offer to pray that their minds be opened to the impossible? Or should I pass on the advice given to Alice by the White Queen in Alice Through the Looking Glass.
The White Queen had said something astonishing to which Alice retorted "I can't believe that!"
The White Queen was shocked. She told Alice it is possible to believe anything, with practice. "Why," she said, "sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."

lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

I wonder then why they riposte in this forum, then!

So convince me! If you are willing to abandon your decision not to argue about this.

The examples given would only be completely unjust if we knew the motives of those who did this! How, may I ask, can anyone know this with such certainty? I must admit, I do delight in pointing out the irony of those claiming there is no God, while as part of their proof, they claim such god-like knowledge as he would have.

So perhaps I am deserving of some reproof for taking such relishments.

Said insights come when I'm stumped! And after I ask for them. That's why I consider them probably to not be mine.

It would be difficult to persuade me otherwise! Being healed is rather convincing, I do recommend the approach of asking for healing, then you're not taking another person's word for it.

It is, isn't it? I'm about the weakest wobbliest person I know, and but for continuous intervention (and I don't mean people) and help beyond my own, I would certainly be dead or insane by now. Or both.

But the boot is on the other foot! You are the one insisting we can pull ourselves up by said straps.

I contend that we cannot. I know I can't.

So no one should be put to death? No one should ever die? I'm not sure but that life forever here on earth like it is now would be worse than any punishment.

Every point is not actually insisted on! The critical points are different.

I agree that it's inconsistent, however, people are generally known for inconsistency! Not that this is deliberate, there's just so much to sort out, in any view of reality, that people generally start by taking some parts, and leaving off others.

I know I did...

Regards,
Lee

P.S. Sir Atheos! I believe I have a post in your court, that you have not yet answered, shall we advance the discussion?

Gawen

WE are not trying to overthrow the Bible. WE have come to the conclusion through reason and c ritical thinking skills by our experiences that the Bible overthows itself. We just try to show those that cannot throw off the shackles of oppresive religion that they can as well.

I will admit that some atheists are quite active in this.


I have thrown many posts within the last month with inconsistencies that should keep you happy in refuting them. But I will not attempt to convince you. You must convince yourself.


Atheos brought up a valid point. We can only know what the scripture said. Too many Christians play spin doctor to scripture. We also find delight in pointing out that irony. However, we try to show where the irony lays instead of just pointing it out.

Probably?

Wouldn't you consider this ad hoc? Or maybe
Affirmation of the consequent--- "A implies B, B is true, therefore A is true." Or maybe
Argumentum ad ignorantiam or maybe
a false dichtomy...or maybe....


But I guess not



I pull my own boots on. I know a lot of people that do. And if we can't, we seek out assistance from people who can help us. Why can't you?

lee_merrill

I'm, erm, convinced already, to (surprisingly enough!) the point of view I am holding here.

The irony that the Scriptures only say we cannot rebuild, or reinhabit Babylon? And this cannot be tested?

But pulling yourself up by these bootstraps would be more difficult.

I've been around the block! Let me tell you. And I still need more help than I found with people. Some folks are just not nearly so able as others, in some basic areas, I would be one of them.

Blessings,
Lee

Stephen T-B

lee_merrill asks, in relation to the hewing to pieces of Agag, king of the benighted Amalakites: "So no one should be put to death?"

There are ways and ways of "putting to death". Hewing a man to pieces is, perhaps, a particularly unpleasant one.
And as a matter of fact, I do not think people should be put to death. I am opposed to capital punishment. I think particularly awful murderers should be left alone with a beaker of cyanide on hand, and allowed to do what they think fit.

We note that the blood-thirsty God of the Old Testament behaved in just the sort of blood-thirsty way that would be expected, by Bronze-Age people, of a great and powerful god.
And let's not forget that this god enjoyed the smell of a burnt offering. pretty "Bronze Age", eh? I bet if you suggested a goat be sacrificed to God on the altar of your local church, lee_Merill, and burnt to a crisp, your fellow worshippers woud give you some strange looks.

But all that aside, if the OT God comes across as arbitary, capricious, cruel, vicious, vindinctive and violent, it's not so very surprising that the Christian God which it morphed into retains some of those traits. After all, it still allows perhaps 99 per cent of all human souls to burn forever in the fires of hell - mine included.
Like many former believers who post in these forums, I didn't wake up one morning and think "Nope! I'm not going to believe that any more."
I had no reason not to think there was a god; indeed I assumed there was one. But when I looked for God in earnest, I found nothing there.
Why?
The stock Christian answers is because I was at fauilt.
But how was I to know I was at fauit if no one told me I was? Why didn't the all-knowing, all-powerful god tell me?
Presumably (supposing such a thing exists) it didn't want to. Presumably it was content that I should eventually become an atheist, and as such would get sent to hell.
Christians find nothing odd about this.
Which is perhaps why they find nothing odd about god requiring Saul to hew Agag to pieces.
I think that many Christians rather like the idea of worshipping a "Bronze Age" god, that's arbitary, capricious, cruel, vicious, vindinctive and violent.
Which is why they rush to its defence.

Wads4

But will it make you revise your beliefs?