Mythra

I believe so, Ted. Thank you for your clarification. I have to admit I'm a bit of a sponge right now, lacking the academic refinement to make the distinction between solid factual evidence and conjecture.

However, this is certainly a fascinating place to hang out.

I can see I'm going to need to buy a bookcase.

Michael Dravis

No Robots

Let's not lose sight, though, of Gutmann's affirmation of the pre-Christian existence of synagogues:

Gutmann ("Synagogue Origins: Theories and Facts." In Gutmann, J. (ed.), Ancient Synagogues The State of Research. Chico, California: Scholars Press: 3-4) maintains that the emergence of the synagogue was the result of the Hasmonaean revolution in second- century BCE Judaea, when the synagogue, an institution unique to the Pharisees, became a meeting place where prayers and ceremonies were practised by individual Jews.--Archaeology and World Religion By Timothy Insoll

spin

There is a certain appeal to this stated idea, though I'd think it was later not earlier in the second century. There would need to be a certain lapse of time between the empowerment of the Pharisees during the Hasmonean revolt, probably reflected by Alkimus's opening the temple, and the perception of the need for some other focus than the temple, for it was a big step and probably took a long time to wean their faith off the temple. (If you'll pardon a gut reaction.)


spin

Mythra

Hmm. I fail to see the relevance. Since no one (at least as I understand the discussion) is disputing the presence of Pharisees or synagogues in Judaea in the early first century C.E.

No Robots

Let's look at what you quote from Price in your O.P.:

Generally, the whole depiction of Jesus preaching in "their" synagogues is anachronistic, as there were virtually no synagogue buildings in Galilee till late in the first centrury C.E.

We see here the contention that the Gospels are anachronistic in portraying Christ preaching in synagogues. What we know from Gutmann is that there is no consensus on the existence of archaeological evidence for any first-century synagogues, whether in Galilee or elsewhere. But there is general consensus that synagogues did exist in the pre-Christian period, at least in Judea. It seems that Price has not provided any evidence as to why there would be no synagogues in Galilee, other than the surmise that they would have only started once Pharisees started fleeing there.

No Robots

Here is the crucial contention from Price:

the whole depiction of Jesus preaching in "their" synagogues is anachronistic.

PhilosopherJay

Hi All,

I guess the professors at the Hebrew University's Institute of Archaeology have been reading Price and accepting his conclusions. Someone should tell them that he is wrong. The relevant passage is in bold.


From http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1929152/posts

Jerusalem, Nov. 21, 2007 – Remains of an ancient synagogue from the Roman-Byzantine era have been revealed in excavations carried out in the Arbel National Park in the Galilee under the auspices of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

The excavations, in the Khirbet Wadi Hamam, were led by Dr. Uzi Leibner of the Hebrew University’s Institute of Archaeology and Scholion – Interdisciplinary Research Center in Jewish Studies.

Dr. Leibner said that the synagogue’s design is a good example of the eastern Roman architectural tradition. A unique feature of the synagogue is the design of its mosaic floor, he said.

The synagogue ruins are located at the foot of the Mt. Nitai cliffs overlooking the Sea of Galilee, amidst the remains of a large Jewish village from the Roman-Byzantine period. The first season of excavations there have revealed the northern part of the synagogue, with two rows of benches along the walls. The building is constructed of basalt and chalk stone and made use of elements from an earlier structure on the site.

Archaeologists differ among themselves as to which period the ancient Galilean synagogues belong. The generally accepted view is that they can be attributed to the later Roman period (second to fourth centuries C.E.), a time of cultural and political flowering of the Jews of the Galilee. Recently, some researchers have come to believe that these synagogues were built mainly during the Byzantine period (fifth and sixth centuries C.E.), a time in which Christianity rose to power and, it was thought, the Jews suffered from persecution. Dr. Leibner noted that this difference of scholarly opinion has great significance in perhaps redrawing the historical picture of Jews in those ancient times.

The excavators were surprised to find in the eastern aisle of the synagogue a mosaic decoration which to date has no parallels — not in other synagogues, nor in art in Israel in general from the Roman-Byzantine period. The mosaic is made of tiny stones (four mm. in size) in a variety of colors. The scene depicted is that of a series of woodworkers who are holding various tools of their trade. Near these workers is seen a monumental structure which they are apparently building. According to Dr. Leibner, since Biblical scenes are commonly found in synagogue art, it is possible that what we see in this case is the building of the Temple, or Noah’s ark, or the tower of Babel. The mosaic floor has been removed from the excavation site and its now in the process of restoration.

The archaeologists at the site are also attempting, though their excavations, to gain a clearer picture of rural Jewish village life in Roman-era Galilee. In addition to excavating the synagogue, they also are involved in uncovering residential dwellings and other facilities at the site, such as a sophisticated olive oil press and solidly-built two-story homes.

“There are those who tend to believe that the rural Jewish villagers of that era lived in impoverished houses or in huts and that the magnificent synagogues existed in contrast to the homes that surrounded them,” said Dr. Leibner. ‘While it is true that the synagogues were built of a quality that exceeded the other structures of the village, the superior quality private dwellings here testify to the impressive economic level of the residents.”

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Minimalist

I'm no expert on Judaism but wasn't the whole point of 600 years of development of the temple cult to centralize worship around the sacrifices by priests in the temple?

Once the temple was re-built after the Exile in Babylon what need would it have served to allow de-centralization to continue? Now, once the Romans had burned the temple to the ground I can certainly see where alternative methods would have to be found.

Which, btw, seems to be the basis of this Wiki observation which I have not as yet checked out....as I do with all Wiki postings!

Bold added (and I shall now commence checking.....before anyone has a stroke.)

gstafleu

I think we're starting to split hairs here. First of all, the sentence just preceding this one is "Then there are broader historical anachronisms that seem to vitiate the gospel controversy stories". How many "seems" do you want? Furthermore he refers to Mack for this one ("Our archaeological evidence, as Mack notes, gives no hint of there having been synagogues in Galilee in the first century."), so he is hardly asserting something he himself just made up.

Gerard Stafleu

Sheshonq

Ah. The goalpost moved.
First you wanted to know why Kee was an apologist.
Now you want to know about the quality of his apologetic comments.

Does this mean you concur that Kee is an apologist?