ben052483

Don't forget who you are dealing with though. There is no amount of suffering that we can imagine that a christian can't explain away, so there is no gratuitous suffering. The end all is that whoever deserves it will be in heaven anyway, so no amount of suffering isn't worth that. Life is just a passing moment to the christian.

Manitoumulegirl

Actually, life is just a passing moment to me, too, and I'm not xtian. The problem of evil turned me away from the Christian church at the ripe old age of 13. Now my belief is somewhere between agnostic and theist (I know, it confuses me, too).

Anyone else here remember the book and movie, Sophie's Choice? In the story, a German concentration camp guard forces Sophie to choose which of her two children will live and which will die. No win either way. Maybe god is faced with lot's of "Sophie's choices," and we get to view or endure the suffering which results, but never know the reason.

But this explanation falls into the same trap as the "mysterious reasons" one, so I doubt anyone here will buy into it. I am a spiritual person, but NOT a religous one. I would love to hear a good explanation for the problem of suffering, but doubt if I ever will. One thing I know for sure, no xtian doctrine or fanatic is going to give me a decent answer, and I won't waste my time arguing with one.

Evermore

Does that mean you are a deist?


This is exactly the problem. If there is a "god" as we commonly understand it, such a being wouldn't be faced with any dilemma of any kind. If god is faced with a "sophie's choice" then god is either a) answerable to an outside force, in which case god is not all-powerful or b) god cannot see a way around the "choice" , in which case god is not all-knowing or all-powerful.

Here's a decent answer: There is no god.

Manitoumulegirl

No, it means I'm confused.



So maybe god (if there is one), doesn't have all the attributes xtians ascribe to him/her. I have no special belief either way, but the various possibilities rather intrigue me.

That answer doesn't satisfy me anymore than would the words of a shiney eyed fundamentalist thumping his Bible and saying its all in HERE! Bah! Give me a good, logical scientific proof either way, and I'll be happy to accept it. To date, no one has.

connick

There isn't proof per se, but all the evidence seems to point towards God's nonexistance. I watched a video on YouTube about ten questions every Christian must answer, and while it was laden with a bit too much bias it made a good point. Take all of the questions about God that you would answer with mystery and limited human knowledge and instead answer that there is no God. Even though it isn't hard proof, thinking Christians should note that the answers simply make more sense when "there is no God" is the reply. The same rings true for all omnimax deities.

Zebulon

The "problem of evil" is only a problem for those who postulate an omnipotent, omnibenevolent god, who presumably would have the desire and the power to prevent suffering. In the absence of such a god, we need to accept that shit just happens. And instead of wasting our time wishing for things to be otherwise (also known as "praying"), we can take action to prevent or ameliorate suffering ourselves.

Zebulon

That it may not be satisfying doesn't have any bearing upon its truth.

Theists claim that a god exists. The burden is upon them to prove it. Atheism is the default position in the face of the lack of any such evidence.

Manitoumulegirl

Is it OK to mention the Buddha here? Oh well, if not I'm sure the powers that be will remove this post in a sudden, mysterious, omnipotent fashion.

The very best advice I've read on this subject comes from a little parable told by the Buddha:

The Buddha's followers were plaguing him with questions on the existance of god; what happens after we die; why god does this or that. The Buddha raised a hand to silence them all and said, "Suppose a man is walking in the forest, minding his own business when suddenly, out of no where, he is struck in the eye by an arrow. The man's friends rush to help him. Does the man refuse their help saying, 'Before you take this arrow out I must know from which bird the feather on the arrow comes from. Furthermore, I must know exactly of what wood the arrow has been made. I also must know which man created this arrow and I must know the color of his eyes.'

You foolish people are just like that man with the arrow in his eye. You must pull the arrow out and don't worry about the rest of it."

This was the Buddha's way of telling his followers to stop worrying about the small stuff (like god), and simply work on their Buddhist practice. I think the Buddha was right on, and he wasn't much interested in a god the way we concieve of one here in the West, either, but he got along just fine.

bobforapples

Yeah, I often find god about as useful as a poke in the eye with a sharp stick too!:wave:

Evermore

If this parable intrigues you, perhaps you should research a little about Zen Buddhism. Essentially it is Buddhism with almost all of the dogma taken out. The basic idea concerning "god" among Zen Buddhists is (basically) "the question is irrelevant." And " just live your life...what else matters?"
The only problem I have with the Buddhist philosophy at large is the basic idea that in order not to suffer, we must give up all desire for everything. We must even "give up desire of giving up desire".
Some good philosophical points overall, however in my experience, it leads only to a dead-end...so to speak.