Freethought & Rationalism Archive

IvanJames · 01-12-2005, 06:12 PM

Quote:

I just answered the question originally posted which asked for a conservative xtian response.

Yes, and sincere thanks for that.
---IvanJames

TheBigKahoona · 01-12-2005, 06:51 PM

Your welcome!

PoodleLovinPessimist · 01-12-2005, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBigKahoona

"Yes, that's precisely what I expect. Or rather, I expect the god to magically make their translations perfect."

But that is impossible because of the basic fact that no perfect translation into english is possible given the many differences between the two languages.

So much worse for a god.

Quote:

If you wonder why God created all these crazy languages then go read the part in Genesis about the tower of Babel, but now we are REALLY off topic.

Yet another ad hoc rationalization. I swear, if Satan came to Earth, 50 feet tall, horns, tail and red skin, blasting Christian Fundamentalists left and right and rewarding us atheists with booze, pot and hookers, y'all would find a way to rationalize even that as consistent with the existence of an all-powerful Yahweh.

Quote:

"Yeah, and we find that the translations are full of inconsistencies and outright errors,

Some translations may have blatant errors, but not ALL translations have blatant errors.

Then you can't know which is which.

Quote:

Unfortunately, none of them are perfect that is why it is helpful to have somebody around who knows HEbrew or Greek.

It's supernaturally incompetent for a deity to allow such a state of affairs.

Quote:

...some translations appear intentionally biased in favor of particular theological positions."

If you are afraid a particular translation is biased, in one way or another get a different one.

My point is that it's evidence of only either nonexistence or supernatural incompetence for a deity to permit such a state of affairs.

Quote:

"Very few people have the economic capacity to devote the up to 13 years of intensive scholarship necessary to comprehend the Bible. Unless you're volunteering to pay for my schooling and upkeep, by economic necessity, I cannot ascertain the meaning of the Christian Bible(s) myself. Therefore, you are demanding that I must take the words of people, not a god, on faith as to "correct" moral beliefs."

Christians and Jews do not hold a monopoly on Bible translations. I haven't looked but I beleive this very site might even have there own translations of various Biblical passages.

No matter which way I turn, though, I'm forfeiting my will to a human translator.

Quote:

I'm sure you need not be afraid of a moderator here trying to shove moralistic propoganda down your throat.

I'm not turning to the moderators or administrators to interpret the word of a god here. No one here tells me what to think or what to believe is good or right. The only standards the staff at IIDB enforce are regarding the polite use of their own property. They don't assert I will go to hell, or even jail, if I choose not to post here.

Quote:

Once you have a translation you trust, the interpretation is all up to you. However, with regards to Faith, if you aren't willing to have Faith of any kind then I suggest you don't waste your time.

If I have faith, I don't need a translation, or even a scripture at all.

Quote:

"Just don't ask me to do it, and don't expect me to feel anything praiseworthy about the idea of enslaving my will to other people, especially people long dead."

I'm sorry but I think that I have kept my proseletyzing to a minimum so far. Nowhere on this thread have I asked you to accept anything regarding my religion, I just answered the question originally posted which asked for a conservative xtian response.

You're right. I apologize. I get worked up about this sometimes.

TheBigKahoona · 01-12-2005, 09:11 PM

"Yet another ad hoc rationalization. I swear, if Satan came to Earth, 50 feet tall, horns, tail and red skin, blasting Christian Fundamentalists left and right and rewarding us atheists with booze, pot and hookers, y'all would find a way to rationalize even that as consistent with the existence of an all-powerful Yahweh."

It's funny you said this because that is exactly what is predicted in the book of Revelations. Ironic isn't it?

It's supernaturally incompetent for a deity to allow such a state of affairs.

Now you are blowing the problem way out of proportion. WE are not dealing with a "DO Penance" vs. "Repent" mistake here. We are dealing with a, "Is the english word for "cud" and "hoof" directly parallel to the Hebrew one. Most of the most misleading translation mistakes have been caught and dealt with.

"My point is that it's evidence of only either nonexistence or supernatural incompetence for a deity to permit such a state of affairs."

Yes, there are bad translations of the Bible. The Bible even admits that there will be many extremely convincing false prophets who will lead people astray with REAL miracles. People die everyday who have never even heard of the name Jesus. A few weeks ago 150,000+ people died in a tsunami. The Bible says in numerous places that aweful things will happen to good/innocent people. Does this make God supernaturally incompetent? You probably think so, but if he IS supernaturally incompetent than at least he's honest about it.

I'm not turning to the moderators or administrators to interpret the word of a god here. No one here tells me what to think or what to believe is good or right. The only standards the staff at IIDB enforce are regarding the polite use of their own property. They don't assert I will go to hell, or even jail, if I choose not to post here.

I think you missed my point here. There is a HUGE difference between interpreting the word of God and translating it from its original Hebrew and Greek. I was trying to tell you that if you are afraid of trusting a translation of the Bible because it was translated by a biased person (a Christian/Jewish translator) then why not get a Bible translated by an unbiased source such as this site, or other Atheist run sites. That way you would know for sure it was free of Christian tampering.

If I have faith, I don't need a translation, or even a scripture at all.

If you have Faith you definitely need a Bible so you can know what you have Faith in.

IvanJames · 01-13-2005, 06:35 PM

"If you have Faith you definitely need a Bible so you can know what you have Faith in."

...as every religion tells its followers. Why not the Q'ran? The Hebrew Bible? Zoroastrianism? Zeus, um, Zeusism?

So, who first told you that THIS was the truth?
---IvanJames

PoodleLovinPessimist · 01-13-2005, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBigKahoona

"Yet another ad hoc rationalization. I swear, if Satan came to Earth, 50 feet tall, horns, tail and red skin, blasting Christian Fundamentalists left and right and rewarding us atheists with booze, pot and hookers, y'all would find a way to rationalize even that as consistent with the existence of an all-powerful Yahweh."

It's funny you said this because that is exactly what is predicted in the book of Revelations. Ironic isn't it?

:banghead:

01-13-2005, 06:35 PM	#25
IvanJames Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 393	well, there you have it in a nutshell "If you have Faith you definitely need a Bible so you can know what you have Faith in." ...as every religion tells its followers. Why not the Q'ran? The Hebrew Bible? Zoroastrianism? Zeus, um, Zeusism? So, who first told you that THIS was the truth? ---IvanJames

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01-12-2005, 06:51 PM	#22
TheBigKahoona Regular Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 171	Your welcome!

01-12-2005, 09:11 PM	#24
TheBigKahoona Regular Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 171	"Yet another ad hoc rationalization. I swear, if Satan came to Earth, 50 feet tall, horns, tail and red skin, blasting Christian Fundamentalists left and right and rewarding us atheists with booze, pot and hookers, y'all would find a way to rationalize even that as consistent with the existence of an all-powerful Yahweh." It's funny you said this because that is exactly what is predicted in the book of Revelations. Ironic isn't it? It's supernaturally incompetent for a deity to allow such a state of affairs. Now you are blowing the problem way out of proportion. WE are not dealing with a "DO Penance" vs. "Repent" mistake here. We are dealing with a, "Is the english word for "cud" and "hoof" directly parallel to the Hebrew one. Most of the most misleading translation mistakes have been caught and dealt with. "My point is that it's evidence of only either nonexistence or supernatural incompetence for a deity to permit such a state of affairs." Yes, there are bad translations of the Bible. The Bible even admits that there will be many extremely convincing false prophets who will lead people astray with REAL miracles. People die everyday who have never even heard of the name Jesus. A few weeks ago 150,000+ people died in a tsunami. The Bible says in numerous places that aweful things will happen to good/innocent people. Does this make God supernaturally incompetent? You probably think so, but if he IS supernaturally incompetent than at least he's honest about it. I'm not turning to the moderators or administrators to interpret the word of a god here. No one here tells me what to think or what to believe is good or right. The only standards the staff at IIDB enforce are regarding the polite use of their own property. They don't assert I will go to hell, or even jail, if I choose not to post here. I think you missed my point here. There is a HUGE difference between interpreting the word of God and translating it from its original Hebrew and Greek. I was trying to tell you that if you are afraid of trusting a translation of the Bible because it was translated by a biased person (a Christian/Jewish translator) then why not get a Bible translated by an unbiased source such as this site, or other Atheist run sites. That way you would know for sure it was free of Christian tampering. If I have faith, I don't need a translation, or even a scripture at all. If you have Faith you definitely need a Bible so you can know what you have Faith in.

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